lanthanum chloride

[reefplicate]

can anyone help answer my Q
perhaps Randy H can offer some insides

what are the draw backs of using lanthanum chloride on a reef system.....???

after PO4 is bindered will it likely be skim out via skimmer or would it still remain in the water as another form???

does this compound harm SPS or LPS???

would softy be able to use this bindered product as a supplemented food source???

what i know at this point of time is... it's available for the purpose of po4 binding for swimming pools but suspect some brand of reef products are already using them but in very diluted amount....which of cuz does not work very well or more like it needs a lot of it to work just that little....

can anyone help me in answering this puzzle???

cheers

[reefplicate]

so far info on use of LaCl or lanthanum chloride is found on http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium and VOL 3 of The Reef Aquarium, beside this ive not been able to get more info on it.....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not a fan of lanthanum for several reasons. The first is that I do not know whether the elevated levels of lanthanum that may result in the tank water are totally benign for every organism we keep It may be, but it may not be.

My bigger concern is that the lanthanum phosphate is not actually removed from the system. Perhaps some is skimmed out, but I expect a lot of it just piles up on the bottom of the tank. It may become available through various processes (like passing through the gut of a sea cucumber), so I would prefer to see it actually exported. I have the same concern with dosing soluble iron to bind phosphate vs using GFO to bind phosphate (which is exported).

All that said, it may be a fine way to go. Much to my dismay, since it competes with my products (Renagel and Renvela; sevelamer hydrochloride and carbonate), lanthanum carbonate is used in people to bind phosphate from the GI tract.

[boxfishpooalot]

Ive used it. It knocks out inverts. Stuns them. They run from its preciptiate. But yea it works excellent for phosphate.

I would not use it again fwiw. I would use gfo.

[reefplicate]

thanx for reply guys....

i have beed using GFO's for a long time too but the cost using them is just getting out of control for me...

i have 8 different Tangs, cardinal, a few species of Angels many chromis , many clowns, morish idols and the list goes on....

the amount of food i need to feed them to get them fat and healthy is really driving my PO4 way off......

at times when i'm lazy and stop changing out GFO, i can have PO4 reading going to 0.5 ++ and that makes many of my sps really unhappy.....

the other reason i'm not to happy about using GFO is the amount of Iron in my tank...

some time back, i saw my po4 was going up and needed to remove them quick....

so i drop in poly filter and hope it'll do the job for me, and to my supprise the poly filter turn red which indicates high iron....

i'm lost and really wanted to switch to something else thats as good and cheaper....

perhaps i'll try using lanthanum chloride once every mth to keep po4 under control while still using either aluminium or ferrous oxide to manitain lower readings and hopefully can keep the cost down....

*sigh*

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wouldn't assume a polyfilter will bind appreciable phosphate from seawater. Also, while I too would be concerned with too much soluble iron (although I also intentionally add it too), the red pad may just be collecting very fine particles of GFO that got loose and stuck in the pad, rather than binding true dissolved iron. That concerns me less than too much soluble metal.

[Boomer]

The best way we have found to use it on my chem forum its to add it to a sump at some scheduled time and then have the output water run through a by-pass to a 10 micron filter to pick up the precip. One could also just put a 10 micron scok in front o fhe sump output also.

[reefplicate]

Originally posted by Boomer
The best way we have found to use it on my chem forum its to add it to a sump at some scheduled time and then have the output water run through a by-pass to a 10 micron filter to pick up the precip. One could also just put a 10 micron scok in front o fhe sump output also.

boomer

u are refering to lanthanum chloride??

that was what i was thinking of doing if using lanthanum chloride to treat....

i considered dosing into my overflow chamber via small interval dripping and using micron net to collect particles or whatever thats been bindered....

and for those bindered stuff that find it's way into the sump, i expect my skimmer (beckett style) would have fast enough turnover to rid them.....

well at least thats what i'm hopeful off....

the real concern is really negative effect on my SPS and perhaps Tangs which somebody somewhere did mention the fine particles might have issues with their gills...or something like that....

Randy

so i quess polyfilter's are not what they really claim they are worthy off ya.....

so...if GFO produce fine Iron chalk that binds to PO4 but still remain within our tanks, i'm sure they'll settle on some surface with the bindered PO4 on them which might possibly cause algae to perhaps use iron and po4 to make food and make matters worst.... is that possible or am i now starting to get paronoid.....



how about dripping lanthanum chloride just B4 my beckett style skimmer??? would it have enough contact time to pick up po4 within the skimmer body and extracted in time b4 exiting out as clean water.....

sorry to sound like PITA but i'm really looking out for any possible ways of applying lanthanum chloride to assist me with my fight with damn nasty PO4....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so i quess polyfilter's are not what they really claim they are worthy off ya.....

Polyfiltersd make lots claims, but IMO, what they are good for is binding metals when metals are excessive.

if GFO produce fine Iron chalk that binds to PO4 but still remain within our tanks, i'm sure they'll settle on some surface with the bindered PO4 on them which might possibly cause algae to perhaps use iron and po4 to make food and make matters worst.... is that possible or am i now starting to get paronoid.....

It is possible. That's why IO recommend rinsing it well first. But some will always get out, and I don't consider that a big deal.

how about dripping lanthanum chloride just B4 my beckett style skimmer??? would it have enough contact time to pick up po4 within the skimmer body and extracted in time b4 exiting out as clean water.....

The concern may be, like limewater in a skimmer, precipitation inside of it.

Bear in mind that lanthanum chloride will deplete alkalinity.

[cayars]

I've used lanthanum for years in my reef tanks without problems of any kind that I'm aware of.

I dose it via a slow drip directly in front of my skimmer input. I personally would not add large amounts all at once nor directly in the tank itself as I don't want the precip in the tank.

As Randy mentioned you do want to keep an eye on your alkalinity when using it. Like any other new product you try for the first time, go slow and try it several times using small amounts and look for any possible troubles in your live stock and water chemistry.

Carlo

[Boomer]

reef

u are refering to lanthanum chloride??

Yes, that is correct

[reefplicate]

thanx guys for the great info and advice....

cheers

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Happy Reefing.

[reefpix]

Does anyone know how effective carbon would be at removing lanthanum chloride?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I expect it is not especially effective in seawater.

[schnitm]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Much to my dismay, since it competes with my products (Renagel and Renvela; sevelamer hydrochloride and carbonate), lanthanum carbonate is used in people to bind phosphate from the GI tract.

Just noticed this. I do a bit of phosphate binder research myself. Not development, but outcomes research. How well does it work for the people using it. I found it absolutely hilarious when I first tried some lanthanum in my tank and then realized what it was.

Anyway, I have a big pharmacy claims database that has the majority of phosphate binder fills in the US for the last three years. Randy, you've got nothing to worry about. You're number 1 by a long shot. With this new thing coming along it's like you're trying to corner the market.

Genzyme should buy you a bigger tank!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, they certainly paid for the current one.

[wayne in norway]

If you google Lanthanum chloride and calcification you get some interesting hits, but they do not relate to corals as it's such an unnatural problem. But Lanthanum chloride is used for blood cleaning in dialysis but a side effect is that there are massive problems with bone calcification as the La interferes and replaces the Ca ions, and generally messes the process up.

Now it's a jump from 'us' to 'them', but in a tank full of calcifying organisms that's food for thought. I think it's playing with fire to say the least.

[jemw]

I realize this post has been around a while, but I found an article that really digs into phosphate and the use of Lanthanum Chloride to treat it. In his description of the effect of phosphate on corals, he states

"The reason for this is that this nutrient has a negative effect on the physiology of zooxanthellate Scleractinia in two ways; on the one hand it encourages the proliferation of brown symbiotic algae in the coral tissue, masking the natural color pigments of the corals and causing the latter to turn brown. And on the other hand it restricts the calcium carbonate uptake necessary to enable the skeleton to grow."

The article is five pages long, but well worth the read. Here is a link to it:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...ling-phosphate

[Yohan86]

How about taking your rocks out and dipping them in water with lanthanum chloride? Would this remove PO4 from the rock without problems afterward?

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[tkeracer619]

Originally Posted by Yohan86

How about taking your rocks out and dipping them in water with lanthanum chloride? Would this remove PO4 from the rock without problems afterward?

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No, I don't think so. It's typically used to drop phosphate levels in water such that the phosphate can the leach out of the rock. That process takes a while so I don't think just dipping it would be very effective.

[Osama]

Following: as I have been experiencing GHA in my 500g after a contamination with red bugs and or black bugs. tank then treated with Interceptor. BUT I did have GHA before then as well even with a very flourishing tank. Am unable to control GHA and now seeing brow and dark algae of some kind, for almost a year now and wondering what is safest and most likely to succeed approach .. Going slow is fine by me

[tmz]

How about taking your rocks out and dipping them in water with lanthanum chloride? Would this remove PO4 from the rock without problems afterward?



While curing rock ,old, new dry or live in new salt water , if PO4 rises in the curing bin water lanthanum chloride can keep it low and the leaching shuld stop in a matter of weeks;then after rinsing off the precipitants( lanthaum phosphate and/or lanthanum carbonate the rock should be good to go.

[tkeracer619]

Originally Posted by Osama

Following: as I have been experiencing GHA in my 500g after a contamination with red bugs and or black bugs. tank then treated with Interceptor. BUT I did have GHA before then as well even with a very flourishing tank. Am unable to control GHA and now seeing brow and dark algae of some kind, for almost a year now and wondering what is safest and most likely to succeed approach .. Going slow is fine by me

The safest approach is gfo. Currently the best way to dose lacl into a running tank is to slowly drip into a 1 micron bag. If you already have a large amount of algae there may be very little phosphate free in the water. Testing would be the only way to know for sure. I'd use a hanna 736ulr checker to test.

If phosphate is low lacl won't help much. Gfo and carbon dosing are probably more appropriate. Of course manual removal throughout is key.

[FullBoreReefer]

I have used lanthanum chloride, I used an IV dropper and dosed into my overflow tube, about one drop every 3-5secs, I put a 5micron filter sock on my drain tube. It helped lower my PO4, once I got it low enough I went back to gfo because of the ease of use.