DYMICO system... any detail?

[Paolo Piccinell]

http://www.ecodeco.nl/html/dymico.htm

Dynamic mineral control, DYMICO for friends, is a new and "revolutionary" method for nutrient control based on DSB.

Someone knows something more about this new method?!?


Thanks!

[HighlandReefer]

It would be nice if they published some data regarding the micro-nutrient content in tanks using this system. Many of the organisms that research is performed on need very low levels of heavy metals since they are so sensitive to them. I would like to see how close the water parmaters produced by this system compare to pristine natural reef water.

The total dissolved organic levels found in systems using this method would also be interesting to know as well.

[Paolo Piccinell]

I am more interested on live plankton supply to the system, as nutrient reduction can be easily achieved through technology... but sacrifying the fundamental food source live plankton is.

[billsreef]

The diagrams make it look like a variation on the old plenum.

[Charlene]

A great article on DyMiCo can be found at Advanced Aquarist. This technology sounds very promising if they can make it small enough for the home hobbyist. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/aafeature

[wayne in norway]

It struck me as a clever dual use of a calcium reactor (see DaStaCo) and a carbon denitrafier. Not revolutionary, and not likely to reduce water changes to zero for the usual reasons of what it doesn't handle rather than what it does.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can't see the diagram very well. Is there a link on another page that blows it up?

I'm wondering how the system deals with phosphate.

[theaquaartist]

I have contacted this company several times by phone and email looking for tech specs and prices on their pumps and systems. I have spoke to the director several times. Each time I am told he will email me in a couple of days. This is going on for 4 months now. Great to have a business that doesn't sell their products.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To Reef Central

Too bad they aren't responding to an interested customer.

[KeithP]

Theaquarist, they are probably out of 99.9% of people's budget and realize it. Also new tech like this takes time to work out the bugs. They may not have time for thousands of small customers if they are still tuning settings and equipment for the big ones. Publishing may have gotten them venture capital or have been a requirement for what they already got.

I'm not sure if I read it all right but it looks like they dump a fairly large amount of carbonated water into the display. Maybe the cycles are long enough for CO2 to evaporate? I wonder if they could dump it in a pair of macro algae transition chambers or a pair of ATS lit on opposite cycles and have it dump constantly. Maybe the special computer and automated CO2 valve would be less of a necessity. On a similar line of thought, would the more concentrated carbonated water flow back to the tank in a power outage? For such a "simple" system there is still a lot going on. Hopefully they figure out how to build a small version cheaply. Right now it looks like $5000+ for a downsized version.

I think the pumps they promote are high volume, low head and probably require that the filter be at the same elevation as the Display. I remember seeing a pump with propeller that could only pump 1' head while most similar sized pumps handle 6' or more. There is a reason most aquarium pumps are made the way they are. I have seen too many people post that their pods make it from the fugue to display alive to worry over a theoretical kill that nobody seems to have verified. On the other hand the pumps should be an energy saver if the filter is next to the tank instead of below it.

[MadBeach]

I just read part 1 and part 2 of the article for the first time today and I was curious if anyone of you has heard anything more about this system over the past summer? I agree, the part about the low RPM pumps is probably just an optimization and not a must have. What I don't really understand is what they are adjusting based on ORP readings? I have to be honest, I've never used an ORP probe even though my apex supports them. Any more experienced reefers out there in the know how this works?

part1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/aafeature

part2 (more detail in this artcle)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/aafeature2

[bertoni]

I reread those articles. I missed any mention of ORP, but it could be used to determine how to dose and regulate the flow in the denitrator area. That'd be my guess, anyway.

[Aquayne]

After a lot of searching, I found the patent for this method. I think it is interesting and proof that it is not going to be easy for a DIY effort.
Here is the link
http://www.google.com/patents/EP1365...ed=0CDMQ6AEwAA

[dartier]

This looks to me like automated carbon dosing with feed back loops to monitor the reaction that is taking place. In fact, I did not see any technology that is not commonly in use on reef aquaria today (PH, ORP, carbon dosing and CO2 injection).

However what is novel is the combination of the systems that we use independently into a single system under the control of a computer to automate the process and monitor the end results.

Would this be able to be scaled down for smaller systems? Absolutely.

Would this be expensive? To manufacture, not really, to buy, absolutely.

Could you DIY your system? Yes and no. The hardware requirements are easily met with the technologies that are common in the industry today. There are plenty of easy ways to interface ORP and PH signals to computers along with pump controls. Many are even quite low cost and allow for custom code to be integrated (E.g. Reef Angel, etc.). The controllers that we commonly use are very capable computers and are quite powerful even though they end up doing mundane simplistic tasks on our tanks for the most part.

The complications to DIY a system like this is in the control software. The advancement here is that they have (apparently) made a system that is able to achieve the end result by being monitored and adjusted by a control system using commodity hardware and custom software.

Dennis

[dartier]

I read through the patent. It is quite informative, although differs from what the company has on its site and what has been mentioned in this thread.

For instance there is no mention of CO2 injection so I am not sure where I got that idea? Perhaps from a poster above. The patent also details using protein skimming and ozone for the DT which their website characterises as redundant technology (E.g. undesirable). As well the patent details the inclusion of uncommon measurement types like oxygen probes, and calcium probes, to the more esoteric ones like sulphur probes, nitrogen probes, carbon probes and protein probes.

After reading about this is looks kind of like an under gravel filter with closed loop circulation of the water volume under the plates with particulate settling tanks and measurements of the water conditions under the plates. They refer to this as the oxygen depleted side. This is where they are injecting carbon (all the usual carbon types are mentioned) and I can see how being able to detect the sulphur concentration would be handy to tell when you are getting too oxygen depleted.

What I was not able to tell, is how, or if they are moving water between the two sides to regulate the level of oxygen or if they are counting on oxygen diffusing through the substrate as the sole means of regulating the low oxygen side. The lack of any direct means of regulating the oxygen level on the low O2 side may explain the complicated intake and exhaust piping to the closed loop of the low O2 side. It seems like they are trying to avoid the possibility of any areas of poor flow which would tend to go too anaerobic and produce H2S. I could not imagine how a system like this would react to extended power interruptions as the low O2 side may already be too anaerobic to be safely started again.

Neat ideas in this system and timely as I am just in the process of setting up a mini RUGF in my sump to be the bottom of my frag tank.

Dennis

[Aquayne]

I wonder about the need for such elaborate measures when there are other ways to deal with nitrate. The only things I see as really leading to greater plankton numbers are the intake water coming from under a layer of gravel and plankton safe pumps.
Wayne

[mazoli]

Originally Posted by dartier

INeat ideas in this system and timely as I am just in the process of setting up a mini RUGF in my sump to be the bottom of my frag tank.

Dennis

Hi Dennis,
Just curious how did your RUGF worked? Did you manage to set it up? Could you post some info/pics about this? Thanks
Zoli

[dartier]

Originally Posted by mazoli

Hi Dennis,
Just curious how did your RUGF worked? Did you manage to set it up? Could you post some info/pics about this? Thanks
Zoli

Hi Zoli. I did setup the RUGF and have ran it for the past 2 years or so. I am at the point where I am considering/planning on removing it though. I need the sump space for easier access to my protein skimmer, along with new reactors and have not noticed a quantifiable benefit.

In the meantime I added an above tank Fuge, so I am pretty well covered for growth areas for benthic creatures / pods, etc.

It will however be a challenge to remove it. The crushed coral on top of the filter plates has fused into a block 15" x 18" x 2" almost like live very porous rock. Not looking forward to trying to lift/pull that out of the sump.

Dennis

[jason2459]

I've been running a RUGF since around 2008 based on PaulB's setup. Initially it was along the entire bottom of my 55g and now is in my refugium section of my Sump on my 180. I have no idea what benefit it has other then being an absolutely great place for various pods and other beneficial critters to breed and grow. I've got mine covered with dolomite. I believe it's the only reason why I was able to maintain a healthy pair of mandarins in my 55g. So for that reason alone I love it and wont run a tank with out it.

here it is on my old 55g.

[mazoli]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I've been running a RUGF since around 2008 based on PaulB's setup. ... I've got mine covered with dolomite.

Thanks Jason for sharing your experience. May I ask what size and type of dolomite are you using?
Cheers
Zoli

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by mazoli

Thanks Jason for sharing your experience. May I ask what size and type of dolomite are you using?
Cheers
Zoli

I got several bags of that Estes dolomite pictured above. I don't remember it having a choice of sizes but I do remember it was hard finding a source for it back then.

Here's a picture of it up close with a very tiny yellow watchman goby (who's much bigger today) and partner. There's also some dwarf cerith snail shells you can use for comparison too.



I don't have the order confirmation email anymore but here's my post from back then in my journal

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=33

Originally Posted by jason2459

Capn, Here's the order confirmation.

Order amount: $120.50
Shipping Cost: $87.34
Shipping Method: Ground with Shipping Insurance Weight=105

It was the only place that I could find dolomite that wasn't coated in an epoxy resin for freshwater tanks.

Edit: read back earlier in the journal and it says I ordered 100lbs of it which matches up with that weight=105. I'm probably using about half that amount now in my sump with a single plate.

[dartier]

The company behind DyMiCo, EcoDeco, has some hobbiest level systems in the field being tested currently. GlennF has one and has posted some photos of the filter on a Dutch Saltwater forum. Pretty simple really.

System comprises 3 PVC pipes, one with probe holders (it would appear), 2 baffles with 3 holes drilled in them, 1 end plate and a side plate. The filter is operated by 2 pumps. A small low flow one for the closed loop within the bed, and a higher flow one that can lift the water back to the tank. The filter is built inside another sump/tank, or at least the test units are.

No info on the software, but I expect it to be at its heart ORP/PH control software with carbon dosing added.

I am still struggling to see what makes this system unique or patent worthy. Jaubert plenum's are old school and this looks a lot like one with ORP control added. For good measure, the closed loop portion of the filter bed acts as a horizontal calcium reactor (with the addition of CO2 and PH control).

It will be interesting to see what price point they try to bring these to market at. They are suggesting they will be out in 2016.

Dennis

[timwijgerde]

Dear Dennis and others,

After a Google search to see what's the talk about DyMiCo, I stumbled across this thread. If I am allowed to weigh in here, EcoDeco is indeed developing DyMiCo for the hobby market. I am involved in this process, and we have been working on this small version for almost two years now.

The filter indeed is similar to a Jaubert system or DSB. The main difference is that DyMiCo uses active ORP and pH control. An IKS Aquastar evaluates ORP every hour, and pumps more or less water from the aquarium vertically through the sand bed, based on a carefully fine-tuned program. Carbon injection is also adjusted based on redox potential, and carbon is mixed horizontally to maintain even biological activity and oxygen levels throughout the sand bed.

This way, we maintain a fairly stable low oxygen level in the lower layer of the sand bed. Nitrate values within the sand bed are always undetectable with hobby grade test kits, whilst the nitrate level of the test aquaria remains between 1 and 2.5 ppm (with up to 50 fishes at about 120 USG). With CO2 injection, we maintain parameters such as calcium, magnesium and alkalinity stable as well.

The filter is scheduled for limited release in Europe next year. If this comment is removed due to violation of forum policy, I'll understand. Also feel free to contact me via pm or other channels.

Thanks for your time.

[tmz]

Well, the idea of moving water through the bed to manage an optimal level of O2 and organic carbon which doesn't occur very much with diffusion alone in traditional deep beds is intersting. Seems this process could also supply enough nitrogen , phosphate and other nutrients the denitrifying bacteria need.Managing that is challenging.

[dartier]

Thanks for posting here Tim.

I have been following along watching the field tests from afar. I even went so far as to join one of the Dutch forums where GlennF is posting his results. Not that I speak Dutch, but Google Translate makes for interesting and humorous reading . I am impressed that the system (as tested) does not apparently require water changes or any dosing for that matter. At this point the field tests seems to be all mixed reefs with no SPS only systems.

I am moving next month so I will be starting a new 300 gallon build, and being a committed DIY guy, I plan on experimenting with some of these concepts on the new build (in DIY form). I find the area of ORP control for process management an interesting field of study.

One twist that I plan on trying in my version, is the addition of automatic KH testing to modulate the target PH (by way of the amount of CO2 being added), and hopefully make the system very SPS friendly. My plan is to build a PH titration based DIY tester since that seems to be the most accurate method of measuring KH that I can find (and have the best hope of DIYing).

That should keep me busy for awhile and give you time to get the kinks worked out of the system so that you can start to sell them over here and then I can buy the real thing

Dennis