Dino's live off phosphates and nitrates correct? So then...?!

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Why can I not get rid of them?!

I have done the following over the last month to make sure I had all angles covered:
1. Bought my own quality RO/DI system from BFS and I monitor it closely
2. I have gone from averaging 3 feedings a day to 1 a day
3. I have removed my largest fish and now have four small fish(40g breeder)
4. I bought a very good skimmer, for an HOB, a Bubble Magus, and have it pulling wet daily(impressively at that)
5. I had a TOTAL tank blackout for 90 hours(to fight them)
6. I cut my lighting period down from 12hrs - 2 lamps and 8 hours - 6 lamps, down to 9 hours - 2 lamps and 5 hours - 6 lamps
7. I have been averaging 2 ~30% water changes EVERY week for four weeks
8. I have changed out filter floss, carbon and phosban weekly
*9. I have slowly removed ~80% of what was originally a ~0.5" SSB(all but what's under the largest rock points)

I have started a second round of blackout last night as I am at my wits end.

Of note....I have 8 SPS frags that are all at least showing multiple new groth tips if not visibly growing, with excellent P.E. and coloration.

I am concerned that my live rock is the last possible culprit........what do you guys think??

[HighlandReefer]

Perhaps dosing silicates will help control these dinos.



Physiological ecology and possible control strategy of a toxic marine dinoflagellate, Amphidinium sp., from the benthos of a mariculture pond

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...44848602003733


Abstract

Some species of Amphidinium are known to have produced toxins. When a species of Amphidinium bloomed in a mariculture sediment pond fed by effluent water from semi-intensive fishponds, it was isolated and its physiological ecology was investigated to find its tolerances and optima for population growth (temperature, salinity, pH, nitrate/ammonia, phosphorus, and vitamin B12). In a preliminary test, an ether-soluble extract was toxic to mice. The Amphidinium sp. was eurytrophic, with a great facility for luxury consumption and the ability to store nitrate and phosphate for several generations. It needs vitamin B12 and formed cysts when exposed to high levels of ammonium. Its maximum growth rate was 1 division/day, and it grew well between 20 and 33 °C. It was tolerant of a wide range of pH (6.5–9.5; optima 6.5–8.6) and salinities (20–50‰; optima 22–32‰). The Amphidinium was outcompeted by diatoms if the Si/N ratio was kept at 1:1 or greater, suggesting that this factor could control its growth in sedimentation ponds used in integrated systems to grow mollusks. Eurytrophic organisms are difficult to control by environmental methods, thus, vigilance is required to ensure that bivalves fed from sediment ponds are not contaminated with toxins from this or any other dinoflagellate.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Ok:
1. What would be my source of ammonia? Leaching from rock?
2. Si/N...how does nitrogen play into it and also how can I go about reading up on dosing silicates?
3. By removing my sand bed have I removed the competing silicates, therefore allowing the dino's to stay alive? (Should I add a sand bed slowly?)

Thanks!

[HighlandReefer]

Forget about ammonia as long as it is not detectable in your system. This has nothing to do with control of dinos unless the levels are very high where it causes dinos to from cysts. At high levels ammonia would kill your fish.

Si/N Ratio needs to be 1:1 or at the same level (concentration). To figure this out you would need to run a total Nitrogen test on your water to see what level it is at. Once you know the total nitrogen level in your tank you would need to add silica to bring your level up to match it. At least this is the way I understand what is available in the abstract.

Randy dissusses dosing silica in this article:

Silica in a Reef Tank
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

FWIW,

"The results revealed that the concentration of total nitrogen in seawater is nearly constant from surface to bottom, ranging from 30 to 40 μM 1−1"

This does not mean that your tank has the same level of total nitrogen.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Thanks, I will read the link and move forward accordingly.
I am preparing some water currently and will be pulling out my rock to scrub it in RODI, as well as removing what liitle sand is left from under the rock which is most likely waste.
I will pick up a Nitrogen test kit from my LFS tomorrow.

[bif24701]

Can you post a pic, I think I have dinos as well, doesing vinegar to help control my nirates. Thanks.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I will take and post a picture tomorrow, due to siphoning out my shallow sand bed, it now has only the rock and frags to cling to.

[HighlandReefer]

I just discovered the above article, so if you try dosing silica and it works for controlling dinos in your tank it would be nice to know to pass on to others.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I will update this thread as I progress, no worries there.
I am concerned with dosing silicates though, I need to better grasp the entire situation.
I am going to start with measuring the Nitrogen tomorrow and go from there.

[HighlandReefer]

Dinos growth and reproduction are usually limited by the silica available in your tank. Salt mixes add some silica but it is used quickly. In new tanks in many cases there is an abundance of silica which is a reason why hobbyists report out-breaks of diatoms.

The theory involved in the article is that adding silica will stimulate the growth rate of the diatoms which can than out-compete the dinos and in essence starve the dinos out and their populations are reduced to tolerable levels. Once the dinos die back, I assume you will need to stop dosing the silica to control any outbreaks of diatoms. Diatoms are normally easy to control by reducing the silica. One thing that I don't know without having access to the entire article is if you actually want to see an outbreak of diatoms, perhaps you may want this to happen in a controlled manor. Yes, you are being a Guinea pig so to speak since no one else I am aware of has tried this yet in a reef aquarium.

The pictures you post may help to positively identify your pest as dinos, which is what the above article is referring too, not other micro-organisms. The above study was completed with just one specie of dinos commonly found in the ocean. It would be nice if you had a microscope to look at your pest for a positive ID.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I did have only the slightest, short, diatom period.

They are definitely dinoflagellates. Brown snot threads with bubbles sometimes in them. Much different than diatoms and cyano. When I did the 90 hrs black out, ~75% of them were gone. The ones that remained were very short and grey. However, even with the first posts' checklist, they came back.

I do have access to microscopes at school, I will take a strand or two with me to Anatomy&Physiology on monday.

[HighlandReefer]

Dinos will form cysts which is a protective stage with normally a very thick cell wall, which enables them to survive extremes in light and other water parameters. Once the light or other water parameters return to normal, the dinos start to grow normally and may take a while before the re-appear. Perhasp repeated lights out over a longer period of time can help.

Unfortunately many species of dinos can utilize the organic forms of Nitrogen and phosphorous if the nitrate and phosphate are in very low supply. This is why dinos are very difficult to control. Many dinos feed on algae and derive their nutrients from the algae they eat. Dinos also use photosynthesis form much of their energy needs. This makes dinos very difficult to control like cyanobacteria.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Yup, I can almost literally watch them grow as soon as the lights kick on.
So how do we keep these from ever growing in our tanks?
I have had previous systems and never had this problem before...

[HighlandReefer]

Dinos are found in every tank, but are not out of control. There are a lot of studies about out breaks of toxic dino blooms. They seem to be stimulated by increases of iron, phosphate and nitrogen sources. There are many dinos that are predatory on the dinos that become out of control. In one study they believed that the reason why dino blooms occurred is because something happened to the dino predator and its populations were greatly reduced. Once the predatory dino built back up in population, the toxic bloom was back under control. So if your tank lacks the predator dino, you can see the populations can get out of control. There are many other possibilities going on yet undiscovered. In nature populations on one specie are normally controlled by other predator species. This is very apparent when Japanese beetles and the latest specie the marmorated stink bug were introduced to the US without natural predators. Many bacterial and viral diseases help control population growth rates of other species as well. A virus is what ended up controlling the Gypsy Moth which was introduced without predators.

FWIW, they found that the dino specie that was the predator of another specie of dino, were specie specific.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

So these "mother" cycts, are they attached to the pores of my live rock?
If I was to remove the rock, but leave the fish and corals and water(no sand), I could then possibly attack the dino's outside of the DT without harming the sps and fish.

[HighlandReefer]

I would assume the cyst form of dinos can be attached to anything in your tank as well as suspended in the water column. Removing rock and scrubbing it will possibly remove a lot of the cysts and normal stages of the dino, but may not get them all. If you completely clean all surfaces of the tank, rock & equipement you will drive the dinos into the water column and many can be skimmed out or filtered out by filter bags. Repeating this should gain control of the dinos over time. This is the normal way you control dinos and other pests found in reef tanks, while maintaining good water parameters. Possibly using a carbon source will encourge bacterial growth on the rock and other surfaces in your tank to replace (or out-compete) the dinos. If you have algae, you want to get rid of it as well, since many dino species will feed on it.

[HighlandReefer]

Keep in mind that surfaces in your tank whether rock, equipment, glass, sand.....etc, are going to be populated by some organism. The most successful organisms given your tank conditions will settle on the surfaces. You want coral, coralline algae & bacteria in most cases to occupy the surfaces. If something occupying he surface is undesirable, you need to remove it until something you like occupies it. Keeping glass clean all the way around on a regular basis helps prevent build-up of unwanted species.

FWIW, diatoms that occupy spaces on your rock....etc, are not all that bad IMHO and are easily controlled and cleaned from the rock if managed properly, especially in areas where coralline algae do not grow well.

[bif24701]

My strategy will be carbon doseing and manuel removal, along with lights out for a few days.

[Pants]

I haven't managed to get a sample of someone's dino bloom in my own hands but from video and photos I've seen online I am pretty sure they are Prorocentrum sp.. These are not cyst forming dinos.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

I would assume the cyst form of dinos can be attached to anything in your tank as well as suspended in the water column. Removing rock and scrubbing it will possibly remove a lot of the cysts and normal stages of the dino, but may not get them all. If you completely clean all surfaces of the tank, rock & equipement you will drive the dinos into the water column and many can be skimmed out or filtered out by filter bags. Repeating this should gain control of the dinos over time. This is the normal way you control dinos and other pests found in reef tanks, while maintaining good water parameters. Possibly using a carbon source will encourge bacterial growth on the rock and other surfaces in your tank to replace (or out-compete) the dinos. If you have algae, you want to get rid of it as well, since many dino species will feed on it.

No other algae in the tank. I have been siphoning them out with each of the 2x weekly changes to the point where I don't see anything left.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Keep in mind that surfaces in your tank whether rock, equipment, glass, sand.....etc, are going to be populated by some organism. The most successful organisms given your tank conditions will settle on the surfaces. You want coral, coralline algae & bacteria in most cases to occupy the surfaces. If something occupying he surface is undesirable, you need to remove it until something you like occupies it. Keeping glass clean all the way around on a regular basis helps prevent build-up of unwanted species.

FWIW, diatoms that occupy spaces on your rock....etc, are not all that bad IMHO and are easily controlled and cleaned from the rock if managed properly, especially in areas where coralline algae do not grow well.

I am persistent in keeping all four panes clean and no rock touches the rear wall. I also have a great deal of flow.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally Posted by bif24701

My strategy will be carbon doseing and manuel removal, along with lights out for a few days.

That has been my ongoing strategy, I have been siphoning them out at least 2x a week, along with ~30g water changes.
I have been using carbon and phosban and changing them out weekly.
I have been skimming heavily-wet the whole time.
I had 90 hours of total blackout.
This has been going on for four weeks.

[HighlandReefer]

I feel your pain.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

If all equipment and rock and sand was removed and then the entire interior panes cleaned, leaving just the fish and sps and floating dino's, etc......how long with NO flow would it take for everything that isn't water to settle to the bottom of the tank for the most efficient siphoning.

[HighlandReefer]

Dinos have two whip like flagellae (hence the name dinoflagellates) which allow them to move through the water, so they are unlikely to settle out. The larger the size the particle is the quicker it will settle out. Very small particles can take quite some time to settle out. Dinos may just swim their way back to rock and glass surfaces.