Is it possible to run GFO 4 hours a day only?

[slojmn]

Over the past year I have found that as soon as I shut down my GFO reactor my SPS seem to do much better. I have had pervasive recession and STN. I shut down the GAC and GFO for three months. All SPS healed nicely, growth increased, color was great, the SPS were the best in a long time...then cyano broke out with a vengance. I put GFO back on the system for 3 months and STN and recession on SPS began again. I shut down the GFO and 90% of affected corals stopped STN. I use about 3/4 to 1 cup of GFO for 135g. I am contemplating running the GFO at 1/2 cup for 4-5 hours a day instead of 24/7. Any thoughts?

[rwb500]

if you want to lower the effects of GFO you should just use less. Do you have a Hanna phosphate meter, or another way of measuring phosphate?

[bertoni]

The major problem is that the reactor will go anoxic if the pump is turned off. I'd reduce the amount in the reactor.

[slojmn]

Originally Posted by bertoni

The major problem is that the reactor will go anoxic if the pump is turned off. I'd reduce the amount in the reactor.

Yep, that's what I figured would happen but wanted confirmation. I have tried running less and I still end up with STN. I do test with a hannahmeter regularly and the PO4 rose pretty high in those three months I had the reactor off line, up to .24. During that time the SPS looked the best ever as far as health...color was not great as you would expect. It is currently down around .09 after a few months with the reactor back up and running, within a few weeks of getting the reactor back online little signs started to point to the eventual STN events over time. I guess I will go down to 1/8-1/4 cup and see if I can find a sweet spot. Within a week of turning the reactor off my SPS have stopped the STN process and have begun to heal. I need the cleaner water but the SPS end up slowly fading. Frustrating!!! I have systematically worked it to my GFO as the culprit...this is the second time I have taken it off line and had the SPS recover pretty quickly. A few small frags were to far gone, but the rest are showing signs of healing.

The weird thing is that I run a GFO reactor on my nanoreef with about the 1/2 cup for 30g and the SPS have no reaction what so ever. They just grow and are happy.

Awww, well, the joys of reefkeeping!!

[bnumair]

u can make this happen without causing anoxic.
buy a solenoid at http://www.fishbowl-innovations.com/...p-off-solenoid
program ur controller to come on only 15 min every 3 hrs.
so ur unit will come on 8 times in 24 hrs 15min each time a total of 4 hrs in a day.
this way u achieve 4 hrs per day and still keep ur gfo turning anoxic.

[Big E]

Are you running GFO & carbon in the same reactor? What about flow levels?

There's got to be something different about how you are doing it than most people. Countless people are using GFO without issues.

What about brands you are using?

What about trying carbon in a mesh bag or GFO in a mesh bag?

Another option would be to try vinegar dosing instead of GFO.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I cannot see how using a lot of GFO for 4 hours a day could be a better solution than using less 24 h/day. Since there is no limit to how little you can use, I can guarantee it won't drop phosphate too low if you use little enough.

[slojmn]

Well, I run it by itself with a nice tumble going on the GFO. I was running it in tandem with Carbon last year, the carbon being in its own reactor but with the issues I was having with the STN I took the Carbon off first to see what results I had...then lowered my Ca and alk dosing over time to see if dropping alk levels back to 7.5 helped...it seems my tank does better overall at 7.5 as whenever I push it up to 8-8.5 it seems to react negatively. So over the past year I have realized that running at 7.5-7.8 dKH seems to be ideal. Then I looked to the GFO on two occasions to see what would happen over a 8 month period running it and then not running it and then running it. I have found that my SPS start healing up and the STN literally stops within a week of shutting the GFO reactor off.
I do get frustrated as I am aware many folks are running GFO easily and successfully in their systems. I am just looking for that sweet spot where my SPS thrive but my PO4 does not go off the charts. I feed heavily and will continue to do so. I don't need a super low PO4 reading anywhere from .05-.10 would be fine with me.

Randy, good point, although the amount of GFO I use is not "a lot". I was thinking of running a small amount (1/4 cup) for a week at a time, then off for a few weeks, and so on. I don't know, just being creative and trying to find what works for my system.

I use BRS High capacity GFO, previously I was using ROWA. I still have both available as I never ran out of the ROWA before switching the BRS. I run it in a NextReef GFO Reactor.

[slojmn]

Update-I put a 1/4 cup of GFO on my 120g system two weeks ago to try and see if I can find the sweet spot, PO4 dropped from .14 to .09 in the first week. Everything looked fine. I noticed during maintenance that I had not seated the bottom sponge correctly in the GFO unit, tumbling was non existent I re-adjusted the sponge and put it back on line...no big deal, minor tumbling, pump that came with reactor on the lowest setting, all looked good. STN began on two frags within 5 days and I had another frag RTN overnight last night. Super frustrated . I am getting Cyano ever since I initially took the GFO off the system and I can't quite get a handle on that. If I drop the GFO for good the Cyano will be rampant within a month. I cannot win for losing here. I don't think it had much to do with readjusting the sponge...I just think that by week two my sps starts to react somehow poorly. I really have systematically isolated my STN and RTN events to the GFO. Maybe I should try a different brand...currently I am using BRS HiCapacity GFO. I still have the ROWA...that caused problems as well.

Any thoughts??

[Big E]

If I remember correctly when people were having trouble with Rowa years ago, it was the alk that was being affected & that what was making the acros RTN.

I don't think it's the phosphate levels that are the measurement you should track. Try watching your alk maybe there's a connection there.

Like I mentioned earlier, you could try dosing vinegar for a few months & see if you can get by reducing phosphate & ridding yourself of the cyano.

Or maybe look at your nutrient control methods to control the cyano & phosphates.

What are your methods right now? I've run .03 phospates for years on just water changes, barebottom tank & a skimmer. No chemical filtration what so ever.

At the place I'm living at now the water supply has been different & I had some isssues so I started dosing vinegar. I've never used GFO except for on a couple of occasions short term in over 10 years of keeping Sps.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by slojmn

I really have systematically isolated my STN and RTN events to the GFO. Maybe I should try a different brand...currently I am using BRS HiCapacity GFO. I still have the ROWA...that caused problems as well.

Any thoughts??

It is certainly possible that the GFO is an issue for a number of reasons, and if you want to try to do with less of it or none of it, that's a good plan. You can use any of a variety of other nutrient export methods, including other phosophate binders , organic carbon dosing, macroalgae and ATS, denitrators, etc.

[Met3112]

Look up Phosguard by Seachem.

[jcw]

I've had three frags and part of a colony rtn while running brs high cap gfo so far.

The rtn usually occured when starting a new batch. Yes, it was rinsed.

But the most recent was one week into the course.

[Jakef150]

I use half gfo pellet than BRS recommended amount and my tank do fine..Maybe it's something else ?

Jake

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you do use Phosguard or any white binder, if your leathers or other corals close up, stop or use less. The release of aluminum is the likely cause of effects on certain corals that many people (but not all) observe using aluminum oxide phosphate binders.

[Adamc1303]

Randy I am setting up a 500 gallon system pretty soon. I used to have a 135 gallon system and I ran GFO in conjunction with a refugium with Chaeto in it. I never got much chaeto growth. Was this because I was running the GFO as well? On my new tank I want to run GFO and have an algae turf scrubber and then a refugium for pod growth, not really to harvest alage. I want to know, is this too much? Is the GFO and ATS overkill? I am not trying to hijack this thread as this is relevant to the topic maybe Slojmn is overdoing it as well. I did have some STN and RTN at times like most tanks, but I never contributed it to PO4 removal. Now this thread got me thinking.

[hedgedrew]

I started vodka and vinegar on my 1250 gallon sps. Brought nitrates dn from 5ppm to about 2. I pulled my gfo and i am plesently surprised at results. My sps color is much better and my stn situation is stable. My phosphates are running .02 with cheto refuge tank and vodka vinegar combo. I alwys used to loose coral on my monthly rowa change. I dont miss that chore either!,

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by Adamc1303

I never got much chaeto growth. Was this because I was running the GFO as well?

Probably.

I'd go with as little GFO as seems to work with the ATS (maybe none) and see what happens. Then increase it if needed.

[slojmn]

Originally Posted by Big E

If I remember correctly when people were having trouble with Rowa years ago, it was the alk that was being affected & that what was making the acros RTN.

I don't think it's the phosphate levels that are the measurement you should track. Try watching your alk maybe there's a connection there.

Like I mentioned earlier, you could try dosing vinegar for a few months & see if you can get by reducing phosphate & ridding yourself of the cyano.

Or maybe look at your nutrient control methods to control the cyano & phosphates.

What are your methods right now? I've run .03 phospates for years on just water changes, barebottom tank & a skimmer. No chemical filtration what so ever.

At the place I'm living at now the water supply has been different & I had some issues so I started dosing vinegar. I've never used GFO except for on a couple of occasions short term in over 10 years of keeping Sps.

Currently I have chosen to run a shallow sand bed due to my desire to keep the chaoti wrasse pair I have. I also wanted a sand bed in general. In my old tank I ran zeovit for years along with bare bottom. This time around I wanted the sand bed and no Zeovit...I got tired of walking the fine line with the Zeovit system. I found it was not forgiving at all. I feed my fish population vigorously and I know this is my main source of problems. Since I am not really wanting to change that feeding schedule since my fish are all healthy and happy I am looking to export more. I have not really tested or addressed the possible nitrate values in the tank. Vinegar dosing seems like it could help with that as well. My goal is not to run a super low nutrient system as I keep a very mixed reef with some inhabitants needing more nutrients...I am shooting for PO4's around .05-.07 regularly. Vinegar dosing seems like a good option for me. I would like to try it without the GFO for a few months and see what happens. I have considered a vinegar/vodka regimen but really want the "less is best" and "keep it simple" strategy with my tank. I have been going lights out/blackout on the tank for 3 days about every 4-5 weeks to keep the cyano at bay along with running the GFO. I wonder if this makes the sps unhappy as well. I am not set-up for macro-algae at this time.
I have found that my alk has been a problem in the past but over the last year I have found where it works best in my tank and I have maintained it well with weekly testing and very minor adjustments. I found it exceptionally high once when I thought running at 9.0 might be best..it crept up to 10.4 dKH and the sps really showed their displeasure, once it dropped back down to 7.5 naturally over time all sps were much improved and growing. My SPS do best at or around 7.0-7.5. I keep my alk as stable as possible with a dosing system. As the alk creeps below 7.0 I add another minute. This has worked well and I do notice growth on my sps will correlate to an increase in alk depletion. I have been researching vinegar dosing...I am leaning towards that route.
I know I need to stick to something for a course for a few months to really see how my system will respond...unless it goes bad fast then I adjust quickly.
I think that covers things pretty well as far as the tank goes.
Most recent params (yesterday)

PO4's .13 (crept back up over the last week so I know that 1/4 cup of GFO is exhausted already after 14 days of running it)
alk 6.8 dKH (Added another minute to doser to get it back in the 7.0-7.5 range)
Ca 475ppm
Mag 1350ppm

My plan is to start at the recommended "conversion" amounts of Vinegarper the Vodka article...but I wont be doing 8x's as much...I think 4x's as much will be a good starting point and see how the tank looks as I go.
Any suggestions or tips?
My plan is to split the vinegar dose to twice a day. What about decreasing PH...any suggestions??

[bertoni]

Are you asking whether the vinegar will lower the pH? It'll lower the pH some until it's consumed, but that's generally not an issue.

[Big E]

Is the sandbed fine or course enough to siphon? I'd siphon sections or swish it around occasionally to keep it nutrient free.

I don't like running my alk that low only because below 7 causes problems for me. I like between 8-9.

Watch the corals more than chasing specific target numbers of Po4 & N. You shouldn't have to test alk weekly if you have a reliable dosing system. Seems like you're micro managing your system.......................maybe carry over from the old zeo days?

I followed the 8x & ramped up per the RK directions. It's slow but reliable. Try it for 3 months & keep status quo on everything else. Don't expect results to happen over night.

I dose 5ml at a time usually during lights on.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by slojmn

My plan is to start at the recommended "conversion" amounts of Vinegarper the Vodka article...but I wont be doing 8x's as much...I think 4x's as much will be a good starting point and see how the tank looks as I go.
Any suggestions or tips?
My plan is to split the vinegar dose to twice a day. What about decreasing PH...any suggestions??

Maybe. IMO the vodka article is extremely conservative in its starting speed. There is nothing wrong with that, but I'm not convinced it is necessary and when I've started both vodka and vinegar I started much faster, essentially getting to a final dosing in couple of weeks. However, if you are very concerned about corals bleaching and such, you might want to go slower than I have.

[slojmn]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the time.
Bertoni, I was just wondering if I should supplement anything for the lower pH when dosing vinegar, sounds like I need not worry about the pH so much
Big E, I really don't micro-manage too much, but a little, hehehehe. I watch the corals, sand bed, rocks, etc. for signs of issues. then I test. I have only been testing weekly as my sps have been so up and down with growth and then die back. During the growth periods they are using up more alk...then when I have issues (GFO) and they die back or stop growing the alk was rising. So I went to a test every week to just track the alk most often to make sure I gave it a nudge if it started to drop or lowered the dosing a bit if it started to rise. Otherwise I have just tried to find a stable "sweet" spot. Its been hard as I have lost a number of sps frags here and there along with others becoming stagnant or slow recession. When that happens the alk tends to rise a bit. You know how that goes.
Randy, I'll plan on just dosing the vinegar at 8x's dose and ramping up per the article directions and see what the next few months brings me .

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by slojmn

T
I was just wondering if I should supplement anything for the lower pH when dosing vinegar, sounds like I need not worry about the pH so much



Randy, I'll plan on just dosing the vinegar at 8x's dose and ramping up per the article directions and see what the next few months brings me .

OK, good luck.


FWIW, I'd just wait and see on the pH issue. Vodka dosing also lowers pH.