slow demise of RBTAs..... perplexed..

[xtlosx]

Hey Guys, so my tank is about a year and a half old and have had the RBTA in the pictures below the entire time. In that time, it split once and the clone stayed right next to the mother and both were happy, until about a month ago.

I moved a rock that was in front of them both (bad bad idea apparently), and well it's been a slow demise since then for them both. The mother went from being HUGE, and I mean tentacles extending 12-15" to now moving on the underside of the rockwork in the back (where I can't get her of course). The mother's tentacles have completely gone into the disk, and she is just basically a disk right now. The clone has stayed in the same spot, and has done the same thing, but has a couple of tiny nubs for tentacles. Both mouths are tight, but just look absolutely awful, won't accept food (obviously hard without tentacles).

I have three other BTAs in the tank that are extended and have been in the tank for the same length of time (over a year). Those are all awesome, no issues what so ever. Nothing has gone wrong with my SPS, LPS, clams, algae, nothing. Everything has stayed 100% the same with the exception of the two BTAs. I have been running way more chemical filtration than normal thinking maybe that will take care of chemical warfare or something. I am running 3x full satchels of ChemiPure Elite, and 2x satchels of Purigen and have been for quite some time. Nothing has changed with the BTAs, although the positive thing is they haven't detached and aren't floating around, so they are certainly alive. On the plus side, the tank is spotless even more so than before because of the added filtration.

To clarify, nothing has changed, water change schedule is the same, params are all within my normal targets, temps, etc. nothing, absolutely nothing and it's just these two BTAs... consequently, they were my favorites and made the tank :-(

I have been told by several people not to worry and give them as much time as they need (until they are dead of course). BTAs are hardy and go through hell normally coming out the other end just fine. Not really sure what I'm asking to the group, but does anyone have ANY clue what might cause this??????? I'm just hoping that the BTAs pull through with some sort of miracle and all is well..

Thanks everyone, picture of the mother and clone below.. I don't have any current pictures, just basically think of a BTA with all tentacles receeded into the oral disc, with the exception of a nub or two.

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by xtlosx

The mother's tentacles have completely gone into the disk, and she is just basically a disk right now. The clone has stayed in the same spot, and has done the same thing, but has a couple of tiny nubs for tentacles.

When tentacles disappear it is a sign of starvation or predation. Did they all disappear at the same time? Or did some disappear sooner than others? Any photos?

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

When tentacles disappear it is a sign of starvation or predation. Did they all disappear at the same time? Or did some disappear sooner than others? Any photos?

If you think of the oral disc as a pie graph, it started about 5% dissapeared at a time, then slowly more, and more, and now the mother is behind my entire rock scape and I can barely see her... have no clue what is going on, so impossible to get a picture much less see her.

I fed these guys weekly for their entire life, so not sure how starvation could've happened?

If I can get a picture of the clone I will... Sorry for the lack of pictures, but appreciate the response.

Predation from what, any ideas?

[Reilly13]

I have 2, one green, one red. The green has this same problem and the red one is going that route. What was happening was, a little while after feeding them, when I went off to do other things, the cleaner shrimp would literally reach into the mouth of the anemone and rip the food out. This was after it had swallowed it and closed back up. So they were starving as well as being beat up! By the time I figured it outand removed the shrimp, the green one wouldnt take food anymore and the red one couldn't hold onto the food and would only eat by holding the food against it. It's still not doing so hot. Not sure if either one will make it but I'm trying!

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by Reilly13

I have 2, one green, one red. The green has this same problem and the red one is going that route. What was happening was, a little while after feeding them, when I went off to do other things, the cleaner shrimp would literally reach into the mouth of the anemone and rip the food out. This was after it had swallowed it and closed back up. So they were starving as well as being beat up! By the time I figured it outand removed the shrimp, the green one wouldnt take food anymore and the red one couldn't hold onto the food and would only eat by holding the food against it. It's still not doing so hot. Not sure if either one will make it but I'm trying!

hmm.. interesting, I do know the cleaner\peppermint shrimp can pose issues, but haven't seen either of ours cause issues. I stopped actually feeding the RBTAs because, well they just got way too huge.... so don't think not feeding them is the issue to be honest, they were enormous and I stopped feeding them as it was literally under the LEDs baking in the glory....

Not sure, I can't even hold food them the mother anymore, she's just not at a spot I can do anything to her.... just have to wait, hope that pristine water quality and being in the shade for a while will help her out....

[Reilly13]

I think bubble anemones have a slow reaction time and issues take weeks to show up and weeks to resolve once corrected (at least where starvation is concerned). My long tenacle looks great. Go figure.

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by Reilly13

I think bubble anemones have a slow reaction time and issues take weeks to show up and weeks to resolve once corrected (at least where starvation is concerned). My long tenacle looks great. Go figure.

oh.. you have a LTA as well? I had understood that they do not co-exist well, and normally the LTA prevails while the BTAs do NOT live... Maybe I heard wrong?

[steelhead77]

As long as you have good light and are feeding the fish in your tank it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for these things to starve. I have about 11 in my tank (all from one"mother") and I NEVER actively feed them. Think about them in the wild, they are not hunters and no-one is dropping fish in their gullet. They are rudimentary creatures and actully require very little care. Most people cause more problems by feeding them than by not. They actually like a little "dirty" water and feed off of the water column.

Don't sweat it. My guess is that it is splitting and you will have one if not two more in your tank before the week is out.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by xtlosx

oh.. you have a LTA as well? I had understood that they do not co-exist well, and normally the LTA prevails while the BTAs do NOT live... Maybe I heard wrong?

Yes, you heard wrong. BTA's, LTA's and carpets can all co-exist in a suitable sized tank.

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by xtlosx

Predation from what, any ideas?

I don't think starvation would be the issue, if for no other reason than you have had them for over a year, have other BTA's that are not experiencing problems, and care hasn't changed.

Predation can be shrimp, crabs or worms, particularly if anemones on one side of the tank are getting munched, while anemones on the other side are doing fine. I have seen cleaner shrimp eating BTA's - particularly if they get in the habit of going to the BTA and ripping out food after you have fed the anemones. Damage tends to be random, with tentacles getting shorter and shorter. Nocturnal worms will munch anemones. In this case the damage tends to be localized (at least at first) with one side of the anemone being damaged while the other side looks ok. Hard to see the damage occurring - you have to be really quiet at night and peek into the tank now and then. Often you will only see a small part of the worm sticking out of the rocks to feed.

[Reilly13]

Originally Posted by xtlosx

oh.. you have a LTA as well? I had understood that they do not co-exist well, and normally the LTA prevails while the BTAs do NOT live... Maybe I heard wrong?

The bubbles were doing poorly before I got the LTA. It's arrival doesn't seem to have changed anything.

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

I don't think starvation would be the issue, if for no other reason than you have had them for over a year, have other BTA's that are not experiencing problems, and care hasn't changed.

Predation can be shrimp, crabs or worms, particularly if anemones on one side of the tank are getting munched, while anemones on the other side are doing fine. I have seen cleaner shrimp eating BTA's - particularly if they get in the habit of going to the BTA and ripping out food after you have fed the anemones. Damage tends to be random, with tentacles getting shorter and shorter. Nocturnal worms will munch anemones. In this case the damage tends to be localized (at least at first) with one side of the anemone being damaged while the other side looks ok. Hard to see the damage occurring - you have to be really quiet at night and peek into the tank now and then. Often you will only see a small part of the worm sticking out of the rocks to feed.

hmm OK, well that is interesting and I often time make my way downstairs to let the dogs out at random hours of the night and find myself staring at my tank. I've never seen anything and well it just makes me go insane that this happened after over a year of having them in the tank.

The interesting thing is, I was contorting myself to look at the back underside of my rock work and saw the motor RBTA with her mouth closed, really large (oral disc), completely white, with some of the tentacles actually extending from her disc but just really chubby.... I'm wondering if moving the rock that was in front of her caused a freak out, or abnormal amount of light to hit her causing anger? I don't know, just reach for straws here, but this is the most tentacle extension I have seen on her in, well probably weeks..

The whole ordeal has been going on for probably two mouths now easy.. if not 2.5....

[osu_bcky1]

I'm having the same problem described with my BTA. I have to be honest, things started to go downhill with it when I introduced a cleaner shrimp.

I also was periodically feeding my clownfish near the anemone to entice the clown to "host" it. The shrimp figured out very quickly where to head during feeding and would often trample all over it in search for food. Even when not feeding, the shrimp would scour the the nem for food. I never actually saw him eating the tentacles, but definately does not make the nem happy.

So I'm left in the same boat you are, just a disk with very short stubby tentacles and it recently just started to move. I'm hoping when it finds a new spot it will recover.

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by osu_bcky1

I'm having the same problem described with my BTA. I have to be honest, things started to go downhill with it when I introduced a cleaner shrimp.

I also was periodically feeding my clownfish near the anemone to entice the clown to "host" it. The shrimp figured out very quickly where to head during feeding and would often trample all over it in search for food. Even when not feeding, the shrimp would scour the the nem for food. I never actually saw him eating the tentacles, but definately does not make the nem happy.

So I'm left in the same boat you are, just a disk with very short stubby tentacles and it recently just started to move. I'm hoping when it finds a new spot it will recover.

That's interesting, there are two BTAs in the area and have never had a problem. We have had our cleaner for a LONG time and he has thus far been a good citizen, so not sure I can blame anything on him. He's more interested in gills than he is food being fed to the 'nems... maybe just our luck..

I did notice once again the big mother colony on the underside in the back, completely white, big oral disc, BUT the tentacles are getting... bigger? They are translucent so obviously she lost her zooxanthellae.... Maybe I'm insane, but this is the first time I've seen tentacles on her in weeks... I'm going to continue with large weekly water changes, and running massive amounts of chemical filtration to aid and provide PRISTINE conditions.

Recovery maybe?!?!?! Everyone put your rally caps on, they're coming back!!!!!!

[Aaarrrggg]

Interesting thread. I have a similar problem with my 2 new(ish) BTAs. I have 2 cleaner shrimp that are always bothering them; I hadn't put 2 and 2 together until now. Looks like they're taking a trip back to the LFS tomorrow...

[osu_bcky1]

Im not ready to blame the demise of my BTA on my cleaner shrimp just yet. Could very well be my lighting or some hidden water condition I'm just not seeing.

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by osu_bcky1

Im not ready to blame the demise of my BTA on my cleaner shrimp just yet. Could very well be my lighting or some hidden water condition I'm just not seeing.

I'm almost certain it's NOT my cleaner..... I as well think there is something strange going on in the water or something.. It just doesn't make sense. Nothing new, they are slowly looking like they might be "regrowing" tentacles, they went from tiny nubs to a couple of quarter inch tents...

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[Aaarrrggg]

Well I took my cleaners back to the store so we'll see what happens now.

Both nems have turned brown (were expensive sunburst & beautiful bright red rose, grrr! ) and shrunk considerably. Tentacles are v small now, like they're starving. I was feeding silversides or enriched mysis every couple of days, but I fear the shrimp might have been making off with the food after I left. (Caught one digging the food right out of one of the nems mouth/stomach once.)

The nems aren't sticky enough to hold onto food anymore, so I guess I just have to hope for the best. Water conditions & light are excellent as far as I can tell. All other corals seem happy and no gaping nem mouths so far. Fingers crossed...!

Hope everyone's nems pull through! I'll be back to post what happens to mine in the hopes it might help.

[Reilly13]

Arrrrggh,

Depending on how your nems are situated you might be able to turn all the pumps off and let the food just sit on the disk. It should eventually close around it but it does take some time. I was able to do this several times before I gave mine to another member here. As I said before, between my maroon clown(who wasn't protecting his anemone AND smothering it!) and the cleaner shrimp who stealing the food once eaten, I had to give mine to a member here so he could try and save it, and he probably will.

Now my long tenancle on the other hand....talk about a sticky and aggressive eater! My cleaner would be lunch if he tried stealing anything from it.

[Aaarrrggg]

Cool I'll give that a go thx!
Unfortunately I can only reach the rose. The sunburst has decided to stay rooted to more or less the same spot since it arrived... which is nuts because if it isn't happy then it could just move! Argh! Stupid nems!

[xtlosx]

Well a positive update.... this is taking a LONG time, slow process, but I do think that the two RBTAs will make it through........

So the big mother is pure white, mouth is now no longer gaping, and still on the underside of the back rockwork.... She was just a disc, but now has a whole crap load of tentacles, some small, some fat, so she's regrowing!!!!! I am thinking eventually she'll get strong enough, and go back to her home... Progress!!!!

The clone, is sitting in the same spot he has for a long time, and went from a flat oral disc, to now having multiple tentacles as well... Being clones, they are acting almost exactly alike, pretty neat to watch this. The clone is NOT bleached and the small tentacles are nice and red still, the original color....

Anyways... progress... How is everyone else's nems doing???

[180+55reef]

would the types of RBTAs exhibit some sort of chemical warfare?

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by 180+55reef

would the types of RBTAs exhibit some sort of chemical warfare?

Yea, the clone is "bubbling" up in certain tentacles and coloring up nicely.... The mother is still on the back of the rock work, opened up big, and the tentacles are completely expanded... There are a couple that are even starting to color up ever so slightly.......

Regarding the chemical warfare, I'm thinking it might be the case, all of a sudden this all happened... The only thing I can pin is there were BTAs added........

[180+55reef]

any updates?

[xtlosx]

Originally Posted by 180+55reef

any updates?

Yup, in fact I was going to take a picture later on when the lights flip on....

The mother is still on the backside of the rocks, bleached, but couple of the tentacles look like they have a green tint to them... She's still hosting my baby onyx clown..

The clone is in the same spot it has been forever, there are a lot more tentacles, they're longer, and some are even bubbling. The most encouraging sign to me thus far, has been that I actually fed it a piece of Mysis the other day! The tentacles were once again STICKY!!! When I first posted this, what little tentacles were there wouldn't hold onto food, but seems as though it has reversed course and quickly snatched up the food.

Like I said, I'm not sure what in the heck happened, but looks like they aren't dying, they're just... going through a rough patch?