Causes of high barium in reef tank

[lee_d_m]

Hi guys,

I've just received my test results back from an ICP test, and whilst most of the results are good, one is showing a high level of Barium (Ba).

The amount is 134.50µg/l. The level should be 10.00µg/l according to the test.

My previous ICP test, taken back in March showed Ba at 10.8µ/l. So in three months the amount has increased quite a bit.

I really have no idea where this might have come from so I'm asking on here for any places where I might start looking.

Many thanks.

[AcroporAddict]

First thing I would look at is your salt mix, and after that think back if any new additive or food introduction coincided with the rise in your barium levels. Outside of the above, you might check your local water supply as well.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd suspect test error more than any particular additive. Slipping of a decimal point in writing up the report?

Ron Shimek showed that the tank he studies did not have especially elevated barium:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.php

That said, it could certainly be due to an impurity in things like calcium supplements.

[dkeller_nc]

I'd also suspect a sample prep/testing error. Barium sulfate is unbelievably insoluble in water, particularly at an alkaline pH. Since seawater contains an abundance of sulfate, I'd expect that very, very little barium would remain in solution.

It's possible that organic molecules in the tank water could be acting as a chelating agent that might prevent some of the barium from binding to sulfate and precipitating out, but that would be a very temporary effect.

[lee_d_m]

Just to add a bit of a fuller picture to the situation which perhaps might help reach a conclusion.

The tank has been running since the beginning of the year, and I'm using the Triton method. For those of you not familiar with this, it is a berlin system, with supplemental dosing of 3 bottles of "elementz". Each bottle is dosed equally via a doser, with the mount dosed adjusted based upon changes in kh, the aim being to maintain a kh of 8. I currently dose 80ml of each bottle per day, which is a relatively small amount compared to some Triton users.

With this method, no water changes are carried out unless required to correct a major inbalance in the water.

An ICP test is conducted every 3 months

I've been dosing the elementz since a couple of weeks prior to my first test in March and continuously since then, after my first test I carried out 4 x weekly water changes of 15% as advised by the Triton guys, since then, no water changes, just the dosing of the 3 elementz and a small amount of iodine each day.

I have always used TM Pro Reef salt.

So, the only thing else added to the tank during the 3 months between tests are corals, a couple of fish, few inverts, and fish food.

The only other thing that I have dosed in this time is a one-off treatment to the tank of Flatworm Exit, this was carried out on 17th May.

So, with all that info, any further thoughts on what might be the cause ?

Thanks again

Lee

[disc1]

I think you probably got a bad reading there.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, do you have any idea of how much barium is in "elementz"? I still guess error, assuming elementz is not some weird product that contains it.

[lee_d_m]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Well, do you have any idea of how much barium is in "elementz"? I still guess error, assuming elementz is not some weird product that contains it.

I don't, but the company that makes the Elementz also conducts the ICP test. As far as I'm aware, and I'm no expert, the Elementz should contain all of the elements which make up NSW in the appropriate quantities, so I'd be very surprised if the amount of barium in the contents was excessive.

I think you're probably right in regards to testing error, but in case it isn't, are there any particular things that could leach barium into my tank water ?

One thing I didn't mention before is that I always use RODI water with 0 TDS.

Thanks

Lee

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Didn't spill a barium enema solution into the tank water, did you?

Otherwise, I don't know of anything you'd have in the tank which has much barium, although it isn't something I've ever looked into.

I also doubt it is much of a concern, even if it is real.

According to this reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ABI...ed=0CB0Q6AEwAA

the solubility of barium is seawater is about 50 ug/L, and the levels needed for toxicity seem higher.

[lee_d_m]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Didn't spill a barium enema solution into the tank water, did you?

Otherwise, I don't know of anything you'd have in the tank which has much barium, although it isn't something I've ever looked into.

I also doubt it is much of a concern, even if it is real.

According to this reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ABI...ed=0CB0Q6AEwAA

the solubility of barium is seawater is about 50 ug/L, and the levels needed for toxicity seem higher.

Thanks Randy, I think I'll stop worrying then and just enjoy the tank. I have sent an email to the testers and will see what they say.

Cheers

Lee

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let us know if it gets resolved one way or the other.

[hogfanreefer]

Stole my joke Randy, I was going to say someone was slipping in and doing lower GI's on your fish during the night!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Happy reefing.

[lee_d_m]

I heard back from the testers.

They think the result is correct and have suggested that they have seen Barium leaching from a specific brand of GFO media which they used to recommend.

The interesting thing for me is that I only used that media for 1 month prior to my first ICP test. My first showed 10.8µg.l Barium.
At around the time of my first ICP test I changed to their recommended aluminium based PO4 remover.

I ran the AL-based PO4 remover up until the end of May but wasn't happy with it as I was getting algae issues and my PO4 wasn't coming down so changed to a different GFO based PO4 remover about 2 weeks prior to my second ICP test which showed the high barium.

If I'm to believe the test result, and trust that the AL-based PO4 remover isn't leaching barium, then that would suggest that my new GFO-based PO4 remover could be leaching it.

What do you think?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting. Could be a possibility.

Can you say what brand?

[lee_d_m]

I don't see why not.

First GFO-based media brand was EcoPhos, this is the one that they said had been seen leaching Barium.

My current GFO is ATI Phosphate Stop, they have not recommended to use this but I did some research and chose it based upon the feedback of other reefers, plus it's cheap in comparison to their recommended AL-based PO4 remover.

I started using this approx 1 week before I sent off my water for my 2nd test.

Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

By the way, were you monitoring aluminum when using the aluminum-based phosphate binder?

[lee_d_m]

Yes, my March test showed aluminium of 50.90ug/L, I think I had been using an AL-based remover for 1 month prior to my test.

Between the March test and now, I had used an AL-based remover until the end of May, I changed to the GFO-based remover approximately 1 week prior to my June test.

The June test has an aluminium level of 15.61ug/L

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by AcroporAddict

First thing I would look at is your salt mix, and after that think back if any new additive or food introduction coincided with the rise in your barium levels. Outside of the above, you might check your local water supply as well.

Hopefully, you found the answer to your issue.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by lee_d_m

Yes, my March test showed aluminium of 50.90ug/L, I think I had been using an AL-based remover for 1 month prior to my test...

The June test has an aluminium level of 15.61ug/L

Very interesting. That's almost exactly what I found and published on Phosguard (60 ug/L when exposed to Phosguard and something undetectable (less than 50 ug/L) when I wasn't using it.

I took all kinds of public flack from Seachem that I hadn't done it right. Turns out, their limit of detection was too poor and they would't have been able to detect what I saw, and yet they continued to clam that nothing is released.

[lee_d_m]

hmmm, I remember the Triton guys advising that all AL-based remover will leach some AL into the water, despite what the manufacturers might tell you. In March, they released their own AL-based PO4 remover which they said in their testing was the purest and leached the least amount in their testing.

So in case you're interested, I went back through my logs since I first started my tank back in Dec this year. I had forgotten that I also used FM Ultraphos for a while as well.

This is the log

Jan-Feb: Ecophos GFO media used until 14th Feb
15th Feb: Changed to FM Ultraphos AL-based PO4 remover as Ecophos was lowering Alk too much for my liking
15th Mar: Changed to Triton AL99 PO4 remover as recommended by Triton guys
22nd Mar: ICP test showed AL at 50.9ug/L and Ba at 10.8ug/L
30th May: Changed to ATI Phosphate Stop GFO media as PO4 not coming down with AL99 and had algae issues
13th June: ICP test showed AL at 15.62ug/L and Barium at 134.5ug/L

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, thanks.

Happy Reefing.

[Azmanjim]

Haha I love how this thread went from "I have added nothing that would increase barium" to "oh I changed to a new GFO two weeks before the test"! The first thing I would have said would have been GFO. I have seen this countless times now from a specific type of GFO, which comes as a larger granule (confirmed on various ICP tests on various tanks). The different brands are most likely from the same source.

I actually am currently running a mixture of this GFO type and an aluminium oxide together, in order to see if my this will cancel out the negatives of both (aluminium and barium leaching). I have previously registered upto 120ug/l of aluminium when using an aluminium phos remover and I felt this level was detrimental to the polyp extension on my corals. Although I could also day this about the angel fish I had at the time, so it's not all science!! Haha

[Azmanjim]

I can also confirm that the aluminium phosphate remover will bring barium levels down rapidly, and vice versa

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The first thing I would have said would have been GFO. I have seen this countless times now from a specific type of GFO, which comes as a larger granule (confirmed on various ICP tests on various tanks).

FWIW, I don't think many people are tracking barium, and after having read hundreds of thousands of posts on reef chemistry, I can't recall a single time its been mentioned. So I wouldn't be too harsh on the OP.

Interesting that you find that aluminum oxide binds barium and that GFO binds aluminum. I've heard the latter, and in fact, that's the only way I used the large amount of aluminum oxide that I bought for testing. Maybe that's why it was OK in my tank but not the test tank. I figured it was just the lower dose I used since I also used GFO at the same time.