I'm going to put a mandarin in a 20 gal!

sundevil_brian · 10/23/2006, 12:53 PM

well before you tell me that its gona starve to deth just hear me out.

im in the planning stages right now and want some input.

like the title says its gona be a 20 gal high. no sump but maybe a hob fuge. the tank will be a "planted" tank using various macros.

but here is the interesting part. as far as feeding the madarin goes, if i can't get it to eat fozen foods (i doubt i'll have much luck with that) i plan to add gupies to the tank. the guppies will breed and produce food (the guppy fry) for the mandarin.

the only thing i don't know is if the madarin will eat the fry. does anyone know?

Travis L. Stevens · 10/23/2006, 01:00 PM

The fry will be too large for the guppies and the mandarin will not eat them even if they were small enough.

burdundi · 10/23/2006, 01:02 PM

Yeah, I really doubt the mandarin will eat the fry. I think you'll have to buy the copepods in the bottle by the truckload to be successful.

Good luck.

Andy

SDguy · 10/23/2006, 01:03 PM

The mandarin will not eat the fry.

The mandarin would be quite easy to keep in a 20g IF you get one that eats prepared foods, which is not so unheard of. Target feeding would be so much easier in a small tank.

LOTUS50GOD · 10/23/2006, 01:08 PM

My manderin eats mysis, but he prefers to pick at the rocks all day. I have alot of light over my tank, so he only really comes out in the open after the first 800 watts go off...

aclos3 · 10/23/2006, 01:33 PM

Interesting idea, do you have another tank you were going to breed the gupies in?

JeffReef · 10/23/2006, 02:00 PM

I have a 20g show tank with 30lbs of LR and was able to keep a Mandarin for only 6 months before it starved to death. I would not recommend keeping a Mandarin in such a small tank unless you can figure out how to suppliment its food supply.

Guppies- are they not freshwater fish only?

sundevil_brian · 10/23/2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aclos3
Interesting idea, do you have another tank you were going to breed the gupies in?

nope, you can aclimate guppies to marine tank salinity. its easier to do with "feeder guppies" because they haven't been inbred for generations upon generation like the fancy guppies. I would probalby put around 9 in the tank with a ratio of 2:1 males to females so there will be a close to constant supply of guppy fri.

why doesn't anyone think that the mandarin would eat the fry? they are prob just as big a frozen mysis if not smaller. has this been tried before? i'm a college student and the answer "just because" doesn't really sit well with me. i would at least want some anecdotal evidence.

Travis L. Stevens · 10/23/2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sundevil_brian

why doesn't anyone think that the mandarin would eat the fry? they are prob just as big a frozen mysis if not smaller. has this been tried before? i'm a college student and the answer "just because" doesn't really sit well with me. i would at least want some anecdotal evidence.

For starters, Mandarins don't eat fish. Secondly, the fry are too large for their mouths. If you are willing to culture food, look into culturing Mysid Shrimp, Brine Shrimp, or even Copepods yourself. It really isn't that hard and quite fun.

sundevil_brian · 10/23/2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

For starters, Mandarins don't eat fish. Secondly, the fry are too large for their mouths. If you are willing to culture food, look into culturing Mysid Shrimp, Brine Shrimp, or even Copepods yourself. It really isn't that hard and quite fun.

i have heard of people feeding guppy fry to seahorses before and aren't their mouths just as small? (that is an actual question, i don't know if they are about the same or not.) as for the culturing. that is not really the idea behind my set up. my plan is to have the guppies in the same tank as the mandarin and they would just breed and there would be no added effort on my part. being in college i don't have a lot of free time.

Travis L. Stevens · 10/23/2006, 02:50 PM

Well, a full grown seahorse is much larger than a full grown mandarin. After all, H. kuda gets around 10+" while a Mandarin is about 3". That alone could tell you the different in mouth size. Here is a size comparisson.

Common Seahorses
Hippocampus kuda - 10-11" tall (30cm)
Hippocampus reidi - 6.5" tall (17.5cm)
Hippocampus erectus - 7.5" Tall (19cm)

Common Dragonet/Mandarin
Synchiropus splendidus - 2.5" (6cm)
Synchiropus picturatus - 2.75" (7cm)
Synchiropus stellatus - 3" (7.5cm)

Travis L. Stevens · 10/23/2006, 02:54 PM

As a little more information found here (which isn't as scientific) - http://guppyplace.tripod.com/Fry.html - It has a table that Guppy Fry is 6 mm when it is first born. That's about .25"! That's huge for most mandarins. Plus the dry would need to be swimming near the hunting grounds of the fish; along the rocks, substrate, etc. They won't do much good with the fry swimming in the water column. By the time the mandarin might find them, they would have grown too large.

millstreetzoo · 10/23/2006, 05:00 PM

You could keep the mandarin in a 20 gal IF you go very slow. First set up your tank with live rock. Make sure you have LOTS of macro - cheato, seagrass or whatever you choose (give it time to grow). A big ball of chaeto is good because the pods live in it, but you will need more than just chaeto. Buy pods to seed the tank with. Wait 6 to 8 weeks before adding the mandarin. You will have pod blooms - but don't get excited - still wait. If you have plenty of hiding places for pods to breed and you keep them feed with phyto, you can create an established pod population that reproduce fast enough to sustain the mandarin. I have a 24 gal seahorse tank. I followed the above before I added my seahorses. After 6 months with 2 fat horses in the tank, I still have a very heavy pod population - even though the seahorses (I also feed them frozen mysis) munch on them all day. The pods have plenty of areas to reproduce that the seahorses can't get to - which is the key. It can be done but most people don't have the time or patience to let the tank age properly before added a mandarin. And the best part - I have never had any kind of algae bloom in my seahorse tank (8 months) not even the typical algae that all new tanks get. I have so much marco that the algae has no chance in the tank!

Kogo · 10/23/2006, 05:26 PM

ive had a mandarin in this tank (20L, refugium, no skimmer) from christmass 2005 until now. still going strong with no special feedings!

the key is to buy the small ones.

nmprisons · 10/23/2006, 05:32 PM

those are spectacular candycanes, by the way

Kogo · 10/23/2006, 05:40 PM

thanks nmprisons

i also keep the black cap basalet in the 20 with no feedings aside from the leftover mysis i feed the LPS twice a month.

chrisstie · 10/23/2006, 06:02 PM

I have a FW guppy tank and have had a few batches of babies. My mom hates me for bringing them to her (no I can't bring myself to use them as food yet

)

They are tiny when they are born but are definitely larger than the Mandarin's mouth. If it was a nice easy method to use, hey we'd be doing it already.

Behavior wise I found the guppies like to hang out up at the surface of the water too.

I didn't realize you could acclimate guppies - i thought it was just mollys. But still, yesh, don't want them in with my saltwater stuff it just doesn't feel right!

sundevil_brian · 10/23/2006, 09:32 PM

thanks travis for the verry thorough answers! thats exactly what i was looking for.

i was just feeding my tank frozen mysis and a whole mysis is at least 6mm so i still think it is plausable for a mandarin to eat a guppy fry. whether it actualy will, im kinda sceptical on now. the biggest factor i think is that the guppy fry would be at or near the surface away from the madarins hunting grounds.

i planned on starting out slow anyway, even with the guppys. my plan was to let the tank sit w/o fish for 2 or three months so i would have a really good pod population going. the guppies where a fail safe to make sure the mandarin didn't starve. i had also planned to ocasionaly feed bbs but i doubt i could get on a scedual where i would have some to feed everyday. guess its back to the drawing board.

also, even tho the sea horses are much larger than mandarins i don't think their mouths are that much larger because sea horses seam to have verry small mouths relative to their body size. i'll have to compare next time im at the lfs.

chaseracing · 10/23/2006, 09:48 PM

I had a Mandarin in a 12 gal Nano for about a year before the tank crashed. It was an established tank with a significant pile of LR rubble. Mandarin was doing great all the way up to the "incident".

-=E=-

kryppy · 10/23/2006, 10:04 PM

You don't need any guppys. Brine shrimp in their various stages of development should be fine.
Put a ball of cheeto in there and you might not even need that.
Mine loves them full size, but does live in a 29.

10/23/2006, 12:53 PM	#1
sundevil_brian Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: tempe, az Posts: 274	I'm going to put a mandarin in a 20 gal! well before you tell me that its gona starve to deth just hear me out. im in the planning stages right now and want some input. like the title says its gona be a 20 gal high. no sump but maybe a hob fuge. the tank will be a "planted" tank using various macros. but here is the interesting part. as far as feeding the madarin goes, if i can't get it to eat fozen foods (i doubt i'll have much luck with that) i plan to add gupies to the tank. the guppies will breed and produce food (the guppy fry) for the mandarin. the only thing i don't know is if the madarin will eat the fry. does anyone know?

10/23/2006, 01:00 PM	#2
Travis L. Stevens Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Perry, OK Posts: 13,946	The fry will be too large for the guppies and the mandarin will not eat them even if they were small enough. __________________ Travis Stevens Current Tank Info: Restarting 28g Bowfront

10/23/2006, 01:03 PM	#4
SDguy Fish heads unite! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 23,384	The mandarin will not eat the fry. The mandarin would be quite easy to keep in a 20g IF you get one that eats prepared foods, which is not so unheard of. Target feeding would be so much easier in a small tank. __________________ Peter SDMAS member Marine tanks since 1989. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 240g butterfly and angel FOWLR. 15g QT.

10/23/2006, 01:08 PM	#5
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	My manderin eats mysis, but he prefers to pick at the rocks all day. I have alot of light over my tank, so he only really comes out in the open after the first 800 watts go off... __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

10/23/2006, 02:50 PM	#11
Travis L. Stevens Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Perry, OK Posts: 13,946	Well, a full grown seahorse is much larger than a full grown mandarin. After all, H. kuda gets around 10+" while a Mandarin is about 3". That alone could tell you the different in mouth size. Here is a size comparisson. Common Seahorses Hippocampus kuda - 10-11" tall (30cm) Hippocampus reidi - 6.5" tall (17.5cm) Hippocampus erectus - 7.5" Tall (19cm) Common Dragonet/Mandarin Synchiropus splendidus - 2.5" (6cm) Synchiropus picturatus - 2.75" (7cm) Synchiropus stellatus - 3" (7.5cm) __________________ Travis Stevens Current Tank Info: Restarting 28g Bowfront

10/23/2006, 01:02 PM	#3
burdundi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 179	Yeah, I really doubt the mandarin will eat the fry. I think you'll have to buy the copepods in the bottle by the truckload to be successful. Good luck. Andy

10/23/2006, 01:33 PM	#6
aclos3 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 394	Interesting idea, do you have another tank you were going to breed the gupies in?

10/23/2006, 02:00 PM	#7
JeffReef Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Natomas Park Sacramento, CA Posts: 850	I have a 20g show tank with 30lbs of LR and was able to keep a Mandarin for only 6 months before it starved to death. I would not recommend keeping a Mandarin in such a small tank unless you can figure out how to suppliment its food supply. Guppies- are they not freshwater fish only?

10/23/2006, 02:54 PM	#12
Travis L. Stevens Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Perry, OK Posts: 13,946	As a little more information found here (which isn't as scientific) - http://guppyplace.tripod.com/Fry.html - It has a table that Guppy Fry is 6 mm when it is first born. That's about .25"! That's huge for most mandarins. Plus the dry would need to be swimming near the hunting grounds of the fish; along the rocks, substrate, etc. They won't do much good with the fry swimming in the water column. By the time the mandarin might find them, they would have grown too large. __________________ Travis Stevens Current Tank Info: Restarting 28g Bowfront

10/23/2006, 05:00 PM	#13
millstreetzoo Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York State Posts: 74	You could keep the mandarin in a 20 gal IF you go very slow. First set up your tank with live rock. Make sure you have LOTS of macro - cheato, seagrass or whatever you choose (give it time to grow). A big ball of chaeto is good because the pods live in it, but you will need more than just chaeto. Buy pods to seed the tank with. Wait 6 to 8 weeks before adding the mandarin. You will have pod blooms - but don't get excited - still wait. If you have plenty of hiding places for pods to breed and you keep them feed with phyto, you can create an established pod population that reproduce fast enough to sustain the mandarin. I have a 24 gal seahorse tank. I followed the above before I added my seahorses. After 6 months with 2 fat horses in the tank, I still have a very heavy pod population - even though the seahorses (I also feed them frozen mysis) munch on them all day. The pods have plenty of areas to reproduce that the seahorses can't get to - which is the key. It can be done but most people don't have the time or patience to let the tank age properly before added a mandarin. And the best part - I have never had any kind of algae bloom in my seahorse tank (8 months) not even the typical algae that all new tanks get. I have so much marco that the algae has no chance in the tank!

10/23/2006, 05:26 PM	#14
Kogo Moved On Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,225	ive had a mandarin in this tank (20L, refugium, no skimmer) from christmass 2005 until now. still going strong with no special feedings! the key is to buy the small ones.

10/23/2006, 05:32 PM	#15
nmprisons Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,520	those are spectacular candycanes, by the way __________________ 25gallon tank up and cycling since 7/29/06 Mostly LPS reef (lords, micros, duncans, etc.) with some ricordia florida and zoanthids. Current Tank Info: 25 gallon, 28lbs of Marshall Island and Kaelini Live Rock, 2x65 power compact lighting, IFS Protein Skimmer

10/23/2006, 05:40 PM	#16
Kogo Moved On Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,225	thanks nmprisons i also keep the black cap basalet in the 20 with no feedings aside from the leftover mysis i feed the LPS twice a month.

10/23/2006, 06:02 PM	#17
chrisstie Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 4,727	I have a FW guppy tank and have had a few batches of babies. My mom hates me for bringing them to her (no I can't bring myself to use them as food yet ) They are tiny when they are born but are definitely larger than the Mandarin's mouth. If it was a nice easy method to use, hey we'd be doing it already. Behavior wise I found the guppies like to hang out up at the surface of the water too. I didn't realize you could acclimate guppies - i thought it was just mollys. But still, yesh, don't want them in with my saltwater stuff it just doesn't feel right! __________________ You lookin' at my wrasse? Current Tank Info: I find it odd that there are children starving in this country and yet we euthanize millions of stray dogs and cats every year and then incinerate the bodies. Not only that, but we make it illegal to butcher the meat. -MarkS

10/23/2006, 09:32 PM	#18
sundevil_brian Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: tempe, az Posts: 274	thanks travis for the verry thorough answers! thats exactly what i was looking for. i was just feeding my tank frozen mysis and a whole mysis is at least 6mm so i still think it is plausable for a mandarin to eat a guppy fry. whether it actualy will, im kinda sceptical on now. the biggest factor i think is that the guppy fry would be at or near the surface away from the madarins hunting grounds. i planned on starting out slow anyway, even with the guppys. my plan was to let the tank sit w/o fish for 2 or three months so i would have a really good pod population going. the guppies where a fail safe to make sure the mandarin didn't starve. i had also planned to ocasionaly feed bbs but i doubt i could get on a scedual where i would have some to feed everyday. guess its back to the drawing board. also, even tho the sea horses are much larger than mandarins i don't think their mouths are that much larger because sea horses seam to have verry small mouths relative to their body size. i'll have to compare next time im at the lfs.

10/23/2006, 09:48 PM	#19
chaseracing Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bartlett, IL Posts: 1,208	I had a Mandarin in a 12 gal Nano for about a year before the tank crashed. It was an established tank with a significant pile of LR rubble. Mandarin was doing great all the way up to the "incident". -=E=- __________________ I want my dog's life. Current Tank Info: 150gal RR Oceanic - (3) 250w. ReefLux 12K, (2) 96w PC 50/50, (3) Tunze 6025 modded, (3) Tunze 6045's, ASM G3, MRC-1, Melev F sump/fuge, all run off of an Aquacontroller Jr. Mixed Reef w/ lots of Fish and not enough rock.

10/23/2006, 10:04 PM	#20
kryppy Moved Down Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Fort Lauderdale Posts: 869	You don't need any guppys. Brine shrimp in their various stages of development should be fine. Put a ball of cheeto in there and you might not even need that. Mine loves them full size, but does live in a 29.