What test kits do i need to add Kalk to ATO?

[skeeter_ca]

I want to start adding Kalk to my ATO to bring my PH up. I have the API kit that includes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and high range ph. It's currently at 7.8. What test kits would I need to start adding Kalk to my ATO?

[twon8]

Alkalinity and calcium. I would advise against trying to chase a pH level. Find out what your alkalinity is and focus on that not ph

[disc1]

Don't forget magnesium. Calcium and alkalinity can get real frustrating when you don't know your mag is way too low.

[SoloGarth]

When dosing kalk by any means pH is arguably the MOST important parameter to watch. Kalk can easily cause pH to be far too high.

I actually use kalk via a dosing pump and kalk Rx to control ph via the apex and pH probe. This ensures that pH does not fall too low and does a great job of maintaining a stable alkalinity.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by twon8

Alkalinity and calcium. I would advise against trying to chase a pH level. Find out what your alkalinity is and focus on that not ph

pH is often the limiting factor. Kalk should not be used to attain (raise to) a specific alk/calcium level. Only to maintain. Raising levels results in very high pH.

[bertoni]

It's true that overdosing Kalk can spike the pH a bit high. I just checked the pH a few times after I started running Kalkwasser and didn't see a problem, but I was using a peristaltic pump running at a slow rate.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by SoloGarth

When dosing kalk by any means pH is arguably the MOST important parameter to watch. Kalk can easily cause pH to be far too high.

I actually use kalk via a dosing pump and kalk Rx to control ph via the apex and pH probe. This ensures that pH does not fall too low and does a great job of maintaining a stable alkalinity.

I think the posters point was missed. You shouldn't add more kalk just to keep the pH up. In a tank with low alkalinity consumption you would be steadily raising the alk and eventually pushing it over saturation resulting in a snowstorm. For example, you often see posters wanting to set up a controller where anytime the pH dips below 8.4 they want the kalk drip to turn on and dump kalk until it is back to that level. This is not a good way to dose kalk.

What I mean is, you don't look at pH to determine how much kalk to add. You should watch that you aren't pushing it too high, but if you dose it slowly enough that should never be a problem.

[skeeter_ca]

Ok, so maybe to put this another way. What testing do I need to have to see where my tank is and be able to adjust it safely? Alk, cal, mag, and anything else. I only currently have a few corals but I want to start adding more. I would prefer to keep it simple for now.

[tmz]

Alk, calcium, magnesium and pH. Alk and pH being most critical when dosing kalk.

[skeeter_ca]

I remembered reading about how PH fluctuates with the lights on or off. The test that I did above(7.8) was in the morning before my lights had come. Seeing that I have no refugium(just replaced the sump) I am currently not running a reverse daylight schedule to buffer the PH. I did another PH test at just before any of the lights starting turning off. It read 8.3.

So I guess it's normal for it to change that much in a day?

I'll be ordering some Cheato very soon to start my refugium back up. Maybe that will help stabilize it.

[tmz]

A 7.8 to 8.3 dirurnal swing is common and ok. Photosynthesis by corals and algae uses CO2; when lights are off, that stops and some CO2 is respired. More CO2 drives pH down as it makes the water more acidic. Opposite photoperiod lighting for refugia , integrated tanks. etc. with enough photosynthesis occurirng in them will even it out over the 24 hour day.

[skeeter_ca]

If I do the PH test before the lights go off. Should I do the alk, cal, and mag test at the same time. Are they affected by the PH swing at all?

[bertoni]

The pH swing won't affect the other readings. I would do the alkalinity and calcium tests at the same time every day, to help reduce noise in the measurements, but the time you choose doesn't matter.

[tmz]

The variations in CO2 level which drive the pH do not increase or decrease the alkalinity, calcium or magnesium directly.

Consumption rates and other variables may differ at different times of the day;so testing it at about the same time each day is best.

[skeeter_ca]

Oh, just one more thing. When I tested my tank and got such a low PH reading I also tested my new saltwater container and I got the same low 7.8 reading. It was made about a week ago. Why do you think that is?

[bertoni]

The carbon dioxide level was the same in the air around both containers. Also, the alkalinity levels likely were fairly close.

[skeeter_ca]

Thanks guys, for all your help.

[bertoni]

You're welcome.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by disc1

I think the posters point was missed. You shouldn't add more kalk just to keep the pH up. In a tank with low alkalinity consumption you would be steadily raising the alk and eventually pushing it over saturation resulting in a snowstorm. For example, you often see posters wanting to set up a controller where anytime the pH dips below 8.4 they want the kalk drip to turn on and dump kalk until it is back to that level. This is not a good way to dose kalk.

What I mean is, you don't look at pH to determine how much kalk to add. You should watch that you aren't pushing it too high, but if you dose it slowly enough that should never be a problem.

I totally disagree. This is exactly how I use kalk. It has worked well for over 5 years now. It acts in a self stabilizing way on the alk level. In addition it truncates the bottom of the diurnal pH cycle.

All that said I use kalk via a very slow 4ml/min masterflex pump in conjunction with a CaCO3 Rx.

[bertoni]

Dosing Kalk to control ph can work in some cases, but it would be a disaster in others. Many tanks run at pH 7.8 even with Kalk for all tipoff, for example. Organisms have very tight internal pH regulation because metabolic reactions require it. On the other hand, many organisms, like corals, are osmoconformers, meaning that their internal SG conforms to that of the water column. Therefore, I consider maintaining a stable SG more important than a stable pH, so I would never add Kalkwasser based solely on pH. Some people switch between Kalkwasser and RO/DI for ATO based on pH, which is an interesting idea.

[tmz]

Dosing alkalinity to chase pH is a poor strategy .IMO, often leaving high alk and and the same low pH overtime .Tying kalk( alk and calcium )dosing to a pH controller results in a lack of constancy in the alk levels related to variable often unpredictable shifts in the pH.
The variability in salinity with this method is also a concern.

Variable alk and sg are more harmful than small variations in pH, IME. There are several ways to control pH and diurnal swings( which really aren't much of a concern with a low point over 7.8 )without unduly varying alkalinity and sg by subjecting alk and top off dosing to a pH controller.

Even when dosing small amounts constancy in alk and sg is subject to some unnecessary and undesirable variation;though with tiny amounts one might get away with it. Obviously, the more you dose; the worse it is.

[SoloGarth]

At 4ml/hr the dose rate of kalk does not exceed evaporation and does not cause alk fluctuations and certainly does not cause SG fluctuations that are measurable. As I stated before I have been doing this for the past 5 years with very good results.

The point is not to control pH. Although that is an added benefit. The point is to add alk and calcium and use the pH control as added safety.

As I stated I am not dumping in kalk in order to control pH. It is used in a VERY controlled way in conjunction with a calcium Rx.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by SoloGarth

At 4ml/hr the dose rate of kalk does not exceed evaporation and does not cause alk fluctuations and certainly does not cause SG fluctuations that are measurable. As I stated before I have been doing this for the past 5 years with very good results.

The point is not to control pH. Although that is an added benefit. The point is to add alk and calcium and use the pH control as added safety.

As I stated I am not dumping in kalk in order to control pH. It is used in a VERY controlled way in conjunction with a calcium Rx.

We're not talking about this.

What we were saying is a bad idea is the newbie who has never tested alkalinity and wants to dose kalk purely for the pH effect and sets his controller to turn on the kalk anytime his pH falls below the highest part of the safe range. I've seen people dumping kalk anytime the pH falls below 8.3 and their alk is at 15 and they can't understand why they get a snowstorm.

If you're testing alkalinity and minding your doses based on that then you are doing the right thing and yeah the pH boost is nice especially with a Ca reactor.

But the point, at least the point I was making, was that if you aren't watching your alk that can get you into trouble.

[tmz]

The pH boost can be and often is a good thing ;though ,sometimes, it's a bad thing if it goes too high. However. governing the amount of alk and calcium dosed via a pH controller puts the cart before the horseIMO. The point for dosing is constancy in alk and calcium supplementation.Kalk will also boost pH when used in lieu of some or all of the calcium reactor dose.

I'm not sure what your point is or why you chose to" totally disagree" with David's post.

David said:

You shouldn't add more kalk just to keep the pH up.

I agree


You said:

I totally disagree. This is exactly how I use kalk.

Now you say:

The point is not to control pH. but earlier you also said : it truncates the bottom of the diurnal pH cycle. So; it's used to increase pH,isn't it?



If it's not to control pH then why govern dosing to maintain a specific pH rather than to maintain a more constant specific alkalinity?
As I stated earlier you may get by with it with such a small amount but the argument made for tying kalk dosing to a pH controller as a general practice isn't robust . One can easily get the same pH boost by reducing CO2 flow to or effluent flow from the calcium reactor and adding more kalk to make up the difference in alk and calcium .