my diy needle wheel dart pump - Page 16

Bill Wann · 03/23/2006, 01:05 AM

Ive been using mdf , but sometime you make a mistake in the final part .You know how that goes , You shoud make you next cnc router its not that hard . Can you tig weld ? If not I could help you with the frame .

Bill Wann · 03/23/2006, 01:06 AM

Spazz , what size cones do you make now ?

Bill Wann · 03/23/2006, 01:10 AM

Jonathan
Only an other reefer would get excited over a peice of plastice tube .
Try and explain this to someone out side our hobbie annd they would think we are crazy .

spazz · 03/23/2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Wann
Spazz , what size cones do you make now ?

i can make up to 12" cones. but the next mold will do up to 22" im hoping. it all depends on the finnished product i get from the machine shop.
as far as building a cnc i would rather buy a factory built one that has a super strong bridge across it. and want the guarintee too. i know i could build my own but i dont have time for it either. i have 12 yrs in metal fab in profesional shops over the years and hate it now. i only do metal work if its for the kicks of it.
this was my last metal project. it should have been scraped but i felt sorry for it and took it home.

after almost a year of working on it. every nut and bolt was removed and fixed, switch or rebuilt.

Kent E · 03/23/2006, 07:45 AM

Thats quite an acheivement, uhh... what the heck is it?

spazz · 03/23/2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent E
Thats quite an acheivement, uhh... what the heck is it?

its a small 4wd front end loader. like a skid steer but it bends in the middle. like the big loaders you see loading dump trucks in a sand pit.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 08:15 AM

wow, what a nice job! Did you sell it? make a profit?

Bill, if you can't figure out what to do with the 6 x 6 tube, I have some suggestions!

Either you are single or your wife is on meds! LOL...

Have you guys looked at Gast air pumps? I know they are expensive but they really put out the air. Sometimes you can find them on eBay. I am a little shy about buying that kind of thing used, but it might be worth it. I just missed getting one last week that put out 10 cfm.

Also, there is a new pump coming out by PondMaster that has sufficient cfm and is priced well. Any thoughts on this one?

spazz · 03/23/2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
wow, what a nice job! Did you sell it? make a profit?

no i didnt sell it. i keept it for snow plowing and playing in the dirt.

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
Also, there is a new pump coming out by PondMaster that has sufficient cfm and is priced well. Any thoughts on this one?

i wouldnt buy any pump that dont have an advertised wattage draw for them. with out that information its not worth spending the money for it. and who needs 600 scfh for a skimmer anyways. thats way too much for any skimmer we would ever need in the hobby any ways. may be a comerical skimmer or something. but not a hobby skimmer.

spazz · 03/23/2006, 09:06 AM

well here is the progress i made last night in the shop on the new needle wheel that will be going to florida. it still need some work but its progressing along nicely. i just wish i had a way to test it to make sure it works right. i dont have a test tank any more. lol
where is big ugly when i need it. at work of course.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 09:31 AM

I have been in contact with Dr. Fosters about that pump and they in turn talked to PondMaster. The report back was that the electrical draw was fairly low but not final and I am not sure where you got the 600 scfh (probably a calculation

) but they told me that the pumps would be approximately 3 and 6 cfm for the top 2 rated models.

The NW looks great and I see it is quite a bit smaller than the original impellor! Are you leaning some of the rods on purpose?

dgasmd · 03/23/2006, 10:13 AM

What can I say that has not been said already? Simply outstanding!!

Bill:

As far as the air pump, I did some research for a while before going to an air diffuser skimmer. It seemed the 2 top choices in terms of durability, performance, and volume of air at certain depths was either the Alita or the Sweetwater Linear II from Aquatic Ecosystems. I seriously wanted to get the Alita as it is very highly rated among europeans using it, but I couldn't also justify the price differences (I did not find it so close to the sweetwater as you did). The sweetwater I got was the SL 94. You can see it in the link below:

Link

This pump does put out some major air. I originally got the 170 thinking that I could always bleed some air out, but it came in burnt out. In retrospect, I am glad I switched to the smaller one. Bleeding air is a huge pain in the b.... because even if it is a little bit of it, it makes a huge amount of noise. You could hear mine like a jet turbine about 8 houses down the street

However, your pump's choice should be based ont he volume of air you intend to push and the ratio compared to the size of the skimmer body.

This stuff is pretty exciting. I can't wait to see the developments from all the testing.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 11:50 AM

all right now I am trying to buy an air pump and these are my options:

Sweetwater SL56 $294
less than 3 cfm, 50 watts

Alita Model AL-100 $355.00
4 cfm, 2.6 psi

Alita Model AL-80 $299
3 cfm/85 Liters, 85 watts

Hakko Air Pump 80 $249.95
80 Liters, 86 Watts

Hakko Air Pump 100 $329.95
100 liters, 120 watts

The Hakko Pumps appear to be Alita pumps with a different label. What do you guys think would be the best option?

dgasmd · 03/23/2006, 12:51 PM

The first thing I would do is to compare apples to apples. Take my current skimmer for example. At 5 ft of depth, it is the equivalent to 2.6 PSI. So, at that depth the SL94 will push 3.5 cfm. Now compare other pumps to the same depth to find out what their rated output is and finally compare price and history. I've never heard of the Hakko pumps, but that does not mean they are not any good. I would also stick to something easily replaceable or serviceable with easy to use rebuild kits and such.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 01:07 PM

I have about 4.5 feet of depth and I follow what you are saying. The SL94 is OUT-OF-STOCK though and I need one now (of course).

spazz · 03/23/2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
I have been in contact with Dr. Fosters about that pump and they in turn talked to PondMaster. The report back was that the electrical draw was fairly low but not final and I am not sure where you got the 600 scfh (probably a calculation ) but they told me that the pumps would be approximately 3 and 6 cfm for the top 2 rated models.

The NW looks great and I see it is quite a bit smaller than the original impellor! Are you leaning some of the rods on purpose?

the pins were just glued in and were not dry yet. i saw that too and had to remove the wheel and set it back down flat os the pins wouldnt lean so much.

when im saying 600 cfm thats for bill and his 2 dart pumps on that monster tube. the sl 96 will be a perfect pump for the job i feel. its a little more air than the sl 56 and will still be low wattage. it will pick up the wattage a littl with both of them running but i feel it will still be under 200 watts total for both the dart pump and the sl 96. it might go up to 210 watts buty thats still an acceptable wattage draw. so if bill hooks up 2 darts to his super 30" skimmer than he should still be under 500 watts total for his system. that will be one very effecient skimmer when its finished. im glad your building this bill it will confirm that my pump is not a fluke and encourage more people to experment with supercharging there skimmers. you will have to get a watt meter and high out put airflow meter to check the reading on that monster. it will be interesting to see how it runs with the defuser in there.
are you goingt o make the defuser removable?

Roland Jacques · 03/23/2006, 04:15 PM

What happens when you mount your Dart NW pump high enough to pull its own air, and then you just plumb/direct the discharge to the bottom where you want it? You no, though a 2" pipe or something like that. Is their a problem with running your bubbles though all that pipe?

ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s almost like were going back to air stones again. (Except we
plug these air stones in. Trying to find the right pump and all.

I sure you have tried this already. What happens when you tried a hybrid impeller half vanes half needles/pins?

Roland

Bill Wann · 03/23/2006, 04:20 PM

Ill put a flange at the bottom for th edifuser so I remove it and try diffrent hole sizes and amounts .

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 04:39 PM

spazz So for my application, which air pump of the list I posted would you recommend? I am going to move my Sequence 4300 to the skimmer and install a Hammerhead on the tank. I need a bit more flow though the tank. That 4300 draws about 250W I believe and pushes about the same flow as a Dart I think.

spazz · 03/23/2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
spazz So for my application, which air pump of the list I posted would you recommend?

i would get the sl 96 or equilivant alita air pump. i dont remember the spec's of the spec's or the alita pumps but there the same as the sweetwater specs.

Quote:

Originally posted by jnarowe
spazz That 4300 draws about 250W I believe

it wont when im done with it. ha ha ha

spazz · 03/23/2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Wann
Ill put a flange at the bottom for th edifuser so I remove it and try diffrent hole sizes and amounts .

thats going to be sweet. but for your application we wont be able to ust that information. unless some one makes a tank that size in the future. we will have to see.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 04:56 PM

You know I forgot that a NW will reduce the watt draw. Doh!!

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 05:02 PM

here's a picture of the Hakko:

and a picture of the Alita

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 05:20 PM

All right I couldn't take it anymore. I just bought the Alita-100 for $355. That should be enough but not too much (I HOPE!)

I sure hope that PondMaster coming out next month isn't the same specs.

spazz · 03/23/2006, 06:14 PM

i think that pump will be perfect. get a 1/2" gate valve and install it inline between the air pump and the dart pump. that will control the amount of air going to the skimmer. dont use a bleed off valve. it will make the volume of air going to the pump not very consistant. its better to restrict it than to bleed it off. yo should run about 210 watts total with the dart and the air pump running. maybe 220 but i hope it dont go higher than that. if it does go higher then you will need to check the impellor to see if the seal is running too tight and causing a drag on the motor. if there is too much pressure on the seal you will need to install a spacer on the back side of the shaft to shim it out farther.

jnarowe · 03/23/2006, 07:08 PM

I was going to go with 3/4" pipe and valve. You think it should be 1/2"??

03/23/2006, 07:45 AM	#380
Kent E One Millionth Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Asheboro NC Posts: 4,273	Thats quite an acheivement, uhh... what the heck is it? __________________ 1000 gallon Current Tank Info: Dreaming up a new one

03/23/2006, 08:15 AM	#382
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	wow, what a nice job! Did you sell it? make a profit? Bill, if you can't figure out what to do with the 6 x 6 tube, I have some suggestions! Either you are single or your wife is on meds! LOL... Have you guys looked at Gast air pumps? I know they are expensive but they really put out the air. Sometimes you can find them on eBay. I am a little shy about buying that kind of thing used, but it might be worth it. I just missed getting one last week that put out 10 cfm. Also, there is a new pump coming out by PondMaster that has sufficient cfm and is priced well. Any thoughts on this one? __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 09:31 AM	#385
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	I have been in contact with Dr. Fosters about that pump and they in turn talked to PondMaster. The report back was that the electrical draw was fairly low but not final and I am not sure where you got the 600 scfh (probably a calculation ) but they told me that the pumps would be approximately 3 and 6 cfm for the top 2 rated models. The NW looks great and I see it is quite a bit smaller than the original impellor! Are you leaning some of the rods on purpose? __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 10:13 AM	#386
dgasmd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: US Posts: 3,402	What can I say that has not been said already? Simply outstanding!! Bill: As far as the air pump, I did some research for a while before going to an air diffuser skimmer. It seemed the 2 top choices in terms of durability, performance, and volume of air at certain depths was either the Alita or the Sweetwater Linear II from Aquatic Ecosystems. I seriously wanted to get the Alita as it is very highly rated among europeans using it, but I couldn't also justify the price differences (I did not find it so close to the sweetwater as you did). The sweetwater I got was the SL 94. You can see it in the link below: Link This pump does put out some major air. I originally got the 170 thinking that I could always bleed some air out, but it came in burnt out. In retrospect, I am glad I switched to the smaller one. Bleeding air is a huge pain in the b.... because even if it is a little bit of it, it makes a huge amount of noise. You could hear mine like a jet turbine about 8 houses down the street However, your pump's choice should be based ont he volume of air you intend to push and the ratio compared to the size of the skimmer body. This stuff is pretty exciting. I can't wait to see the developments from all the testing. __________________ Arguing with ignorant people is an exercise in futility. They will bring you down to their level and once there they will beat you with their overwhelming experience. Current Tank Info: Currently out of the hobby, but considering a Comeback V 2.1!

03/23/2006, 11:50 AM	#387
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	all right now I am trying to buy an air pump and these are my options: Sweetwater SL56 $294 less than 3 cfm, 50 watts Alita Model AL-100 $355.00 4 cfm, 2.6 psi Alita Model AL-80 $299 3 cfm/85 Liters, 85 watts Hakko Air Pump 80 $249.95 80 Liters, 86 Watts Hakko Air Pump 100 $329.95 100 liters, 120 watts The Hakko Pumps appear to be Alita pumps with a different label. What do you guys think would be the best option? __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 01:05 AM	#376
Bill Wann Moved On Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: wadsworth,il Posts: 562	Ive been using mdf , but sometime you make a mistake in the final part .You know how that goes , You shoud make you next cnc router its not that hard . Can you tig weld ? If not I could help you with the frame .

03/23/2006, 01:06 AM	#377
Bill Wann Moved On Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: wadsworth,il Posts: 562	Spazz , what size cones do you make now ?

03/23/2006, 01:10 AM	#378
Bill Wann Moved On Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: wadsworth,il Posts: 562	Jonathan Only an other reefer would get excited over a peice of plastice tube . Try and explain this to someone out side our hobbie annd they would think we are crazy .

03/23/2006, 09:06 AM	#384
spazz Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,285	well here is the progress i made last night in the shop on the new needle wheel that will be going to florida. it still need some work but its progressing along nicely. i just wish i had a way to test it to make sure it works right. i dont have a test tank any more. lol where is big ugly when i need it. at work of course.

03/23/2006, 12:51 PM	#388
dgasmd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: US Posts: 3,402	The first thing I would do is to compare apples to apples. Take my current skimmer for example. At 5 ft of depth, it is the equivalent to 2.6 PSI. So, at that depth the SL94 will push 3.5 cfm. Now compare other pumps to the same depth to find out what their rated output is and finally compare price and history. I've never heard of the Hakko pumps, but that does not mean they are not any good. I would also stick to something easily replaceable or serviceable with easy to use rebuild kits and such. __________________ Arguing with ignorant people is an exercise in futility. They will bring you down to their level and once there they will beat you with their overwhelming experience. Current Tank Info: Currently out of the hobby, but considering a Comeback V 2.1!

03/23/2006, 01:07 PM	#389
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	I have about 4.5 feet of depth and I follow what you are saying. The SL94 is OUT-OF-STOCK though and I need one now (of course). __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 04:15 PM	#391
Roland Jacques Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 2,848	What happens when you mount your Dart NW pump high enough to pull its own air, and then you just plumb/direct the discharge to the bottom where you want it? You no, though a 2" pipe or something like that. Is their a problem with running your bubbles though all that pipe? ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s almost like were going back to air stones again. (Except we plug these air stones in. Trying to find the right pump and all. I sure you have tried this already. What happens when you tried a hybrid impeller half vanes half needles/pins? Roland __________________ Roland

03/23/2006, 04:20 PM	#392
Bill Wann Moved On Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: wadsworth,il Posts: 562	Ill put a flange at the bottom for th edifuser so I remove it and try diffrent hole sizes and amounts .

03/23/2006, 04:39 PM	#393
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	spazz So for my application, which air pump of the list I posted would you recommend? I am going to move my Sequence 4300 to the skimmer and install a Hammerhead on the tank. I need a bit more flow though the tank. That 4300 draws about 250W I believe and pushes about the same flow as a Dart I think. __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 04:56 PM	#396
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	You know I forgot that a NW will reduce the watt draw. Doh!! __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 05:02 PM	#397
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	here's a picture of the Hakko: and a picture of the Alita __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 05:20 PM	#398
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	All right I couldn't take it anymore. I just bought the Alita-100 for $355. That should be enough but not too much (I HOPE!) I sure hope that PondMaster coming out next month isn't the same specs. __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

03/23/2006, 06:14 PM	#399
spazz Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,285	i think that pump will be perfect. get a 1/2" gate valve and install it inline between the air pump and the dart pump. that will control the amount of air going to the skimmer. dont use a bleed off valve. it will make the volume of air going to the pump not very consistant. its better to restrict it than to bleed it off. yo should run about 210 watts total with the dart and the air pump running. maybe 220 but i hope it dont go higher than that. if it does go higher then you will need to check the impellor to see if the seal is running too tight and causing a drag on the motor. if there is too much pressure on the seal you will need to install a spacer on the back side of the shaft to shim it out farther.

03/23/2006, 07:08 PM	#400
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	I was going to go with 3/4" pipe and valve. You think it should be 1/2"?? __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted