PhosBan Reactor with No Decrease in Phosphate

StephenShh · 02/07/2016, 08:22 PM

About five days ago, I finally added a Two Little Fishes Phosban Reactor 550 to my 20 gallon IM Nuvo. I use SeaChem's Phosguard media in the bottom of the reactor and SeaChem's Carbon Matrix in a separated compartment at the top of the reactor. My Phosphate levels rose to .16 ppm.

Before adding the Phosban Reactor, my phosphate level was only .02 - .08 ppm using Red Sea No2:Po4-X regularly. I suspended using the No2:Po4-X.

Two questions:
— Why would my phosphate level RISE given all elements the same, EXCEPT for the use of the No2:Po4-X?

—Is if a good idea to have the Phosguard in the bottom of the reactor AND the carbon in the top? This seemed like a good idea rather than mixing them as I've read that carbon exhausts more quickly than the phosphate media.

Thanks for the insight in advance.
Stephen

Tank Equipment:

Innovative Marine 20 gallon Nuvo Fusion Nano20
IM Ghost Series Desktop Skimmer
IM In-Tank Magnafuge Refugium Lamp
IM MiniMax Media Reactor
Two Little Fishes Phoseban Reactor 550
EchoTech Marine Radion XR15P
EchoTech Marine Vortech MP10w
Apex, Jr.
DDR
Dos

Inhabitants:
Corals:

3 Ricordia
3 Zoanthus
1 Duncan
1 Hammer Coral
1 Mushroom
1 Green Tip Torch

Invertebrates:

1 Rose Tip Anemone
1 Carpet Anemone
1 Bubble Tip Anemone
1 Long Tentacle Anemone
4 Snails
5 Hermits

Fish:

2 Ocellaris
1 Coral Beauty Angel
1 Midas Blennie

Parameters:

Established: August 6, 2015
Sal: 31.4 ppm
PH: 8
Ca: 480 ppm
Mag: 1400 ppm
Nitrate: 1.25 ppm
Phosphate: .16 ppm
Alk: 11 dKH

snulma1 · 02/08/2016, 01:00 AM

Read the instructions for phosguard, it is easily depleted and will leech po4 back into the system. You are better off running GFO.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...PhosGuard.html

Dan_P · 02/08/2016, 01:39 AM

How are you measuring the PO4 concentration?

noble7 · 02/08/2016, 09:55 AM

I ve learned that water flow is critical ...or the media...will clog up..

fishchef · 02/08/2016, 10:02 AM

Phosguard is an aluminum based media and has been recommended not to use in a reef. Hanna systems are the only way to measure PO4. Chemical tests are not accurate at low levels. Even GFO will deplete in a few days if phosphate is high. Don't bring it down too fast if corals are used to a high PO4. Honestly I've found GFO problematic. You need to use fine filtration such as a sock or polyfilter to remove the dust. Rinsing is only the first step. You need to determine the source of the phosphate. 0 PO4 can cause problems. We were using Salifert and it read zero and on a Hanna it was mush higher. My Monti, Red Lobo, and Frogspawn loved the high phosphate by the noticeable growth rate. Enough said.

bertoni · 02/08/2016, 07:59 PM

I personally would use GFO for the reasons stated, but PhosGuard should work. I don't think the order in the reactor matters, but the media can be exhausted in a few hours with that much phosphate in the water column. I'd try replacing the media daily for a bit, to see whether that helps. Once the media is exhausted, the phosphate level can rise very quickly if the rocks are leaching.

StephenShh · 02/08/2016, 10:05 PM

To test the level of Phosphate, I use Red Sea Algae Control test kit.

I'm trying to tame some green and brown algae and thought the PhosBan Reactor was a viable option.

StephenShh · 02/08/2016, 10:09 PM

BTW, thanks everyone for your help. I often feel like I am simply throwing money at this tank to keep it viable. I try to do much research, but some times it's good to know there are others out there to offer some alternatives. Thanks!

Also, the PhosGuard does not tumble at all (it is on the bottom of the reactor). The Carbon Matrix, however, tumbles as expected (which is above the PhosGuard). Given the tumble of the Carbon above it, the water flow is clearly passing easily through the PhosGuard. Is my theory flawed (aside from switching the media)?

I will test PO4 again and change the PhosGuard if necessary. Good strategy?

bertoni · 02/08/2016, 11:16 PM

As long as the media aren't being abraded by the flow, the tank should be okay. I would avoid having the carbon tumble, since it might break up, but the tank might be safe as is. Testing the phosphate level and the changing the PhosGuard as appropriate is fine.

Big E · 02/09/2016, 04:12 AM

Why did you stop the NOPOX? It looks like it was working well for you.

Also, suspending the NOPOX use may lead to a rise in your nitrates.........do you have a plan in place if this happens?

dkeller_nc · 02/09/2016, 10:03 AM

Either Phosguard or Granular Ferric Oxide when exhausted will not leach phosphate back into the water; this is a common misperception that's often repeated on the 'net.

However, you are constantly adding phosphate to the tank in the form of fish/coral foods. And, if no phosphate control was exercised for a long period of time, inorganic phosphate can bind to the rocks and sand. When a phosphate remover resin is added to the system, the phosphate levels in the water will drop, and the bound phosphate in the rocks and sand will leach back out, leading to extremely rapid exhaustion of GFO/Alumina Phosphate Absorbers.

Finally, no phosphate test that relies on eye-balling a comparison with a color chart and the test sample is really going to be suitable for a reef tank. That's because of the fundamental chemistry of the phsophate-molybdenum test chemistry. That's why you require a Hanna checker phosphate test, which uses an electronic "eye" to determine the color change, and is far more sensitive than a human's perception of color.

02/07/2016, 08:22 PM	#1
StephenShh Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: San Francisco Posts: 8	PhosBan Reactor with No Decrease in Phosphate About five days ago, I finally added a Two Little Fishes Phosban Reactor 550 to my 20 gallon IM Nuvo. I use SeaChem's Phosguard media in the bottom of the reactor and SeaChem's Carbon Matrix in a separated compartment at the top of the reactor. My Phosphate levels rose to .16 ppm. Before adding the Phosban Reactor, my phosphate level was only .02 - .08 ppm using Red Sea No2:Po4-X regularly. I suspended using the No2:Po4-X. Two questions: — Why would my phosphate level RISE given all elements the same, EXCEPT for the use of the No2:Po4-X? —Is if a good idea to have the Phosguard in the bottom of the reactor AND the carbon in the top? This seemed like a good idea rather than mixing them as I've read that carbon exhausts more quickly than the phosphate media. Thanks for the insight in advance. Stephen Tank Equipment: Innovative Marine 20 gallon Nuvo Fusion Nano20 IM Ghost Series Desktop Skimmer IM In-Tank Magnafuge Refugium Lamp IM MiniMax Media Reactor Two Little Fishes Phoseban Reactor 550 EchoTech Marine Radion XR15P EchoTech Marine Vortech MP10w Apex, Jr. DDR Dos Inhabitants: Corals: 3 Ricordia 3 Zoanthus 1 Duncan 1 Hammer Coral 1 Mushroom 1 Green Tip Torch Invertebrates: 1 Rose Tip Anemone 1 Carpet Anemone 1 Bubble Tip Anemone 1 Long Tentacle Anemone 4 Snails 5 Hermits Fish: 2 Ocellaris 1 Coral Beauty Angel 1 Midas Blennie Parameters: Established: August 6, 2015 Sal: 31.4 ppm PH: 8 Ca: 480 ppm Mag: 1400 ppm Nitrate: 1.25 ppm Phosphate: .16 ppm Alk: 11 dKH

02/08/2016, 09:55 AM	#4
noble7 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: tampa fl Posts: 2	Reactor I ve learned that water flow is critical ...or the media...will clog up..

02/08/2016, 10:02 AM	#5
fishchef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 1,222	Phosguard is an aluminum based media and has been recommended not to use in a reef. Hanna systems are the only way to measure PO4. Chemical tests are not accurate at low levels. Even GFO will deplete in a few days if phosphate is high. Don't bring it down too fast if corals are used to a high PO4. Honestly I've found GFO problematic. You need to use fine filtration such as a sock or polyfilter to remove the dust. Rinsing is only the first step. You need to determine the source of the phosphate. 0 PO4 can cause problems. We were using Salifert and it read zero and on a Hanna it was mush higher. My Monti, Red Lobo, and Frogspawn loved the high phosphate by the noticeable growth rate. Enough said. Last edited by fishchef; 02/08/2016 at 10:24 AM.

02/08/2016, 07:59 PM	#6
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I personally would use GFO for the reasons stated, but PhosGuard should work. I don't think the order in the reactor matters, but the media can be exhausted in a few hours with that much phosphate in the water column. I'd try replacing the media daily for a bit, to see whether that helps. Once the media is exhausted, the phosphate level can rise very quickly if the rocks are leaching. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/08/2016, 11:16 PM	#9
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	As long as the media aren't being abraded by the flow, the tank should be okay. I would avoid having the carbon tumble, since it might break up, but the tank might be safe as is. Testing the phosphate level and the changing the PhosGuard as appropriate is fine. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/08/2016, 01:00 AM	#2
snulma1 Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 2,281	Read the instructions for phosguard, it is easily depleted and will leech po4 back into the system. You are better off running GFO. http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...PhosGuard.html

02/08/2016, 01:39 AM	#3
Dan_P Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,432	How are you measuring the PO4 concentration?

02/08/2016, 10:05 PM	#7
StephenShh Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: San Francisco Posts: 8	To test the level of Phosphate, I use Red Sea Algae Control test kit. I'm trying to tame some green and brown algae and thought the PhosBan Reactor was a viable option.

02/08/2016, 10:09 PM	#8
StephenShh Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: San Francisco Posts: 8	BTW, thanks everyone for your help. I often feel like I am simply throwing money at this tank to keep it viable. I try to do much research, but some times it's good to know there are others out there to offer some alternatives. Thanks! Also, the PhosGuard does not tumble at all (it is on the bottom of the reactor). The Carbon Matrix, however, tumbles as expected (which is above the PhosGuard). Given the tumble of the Carbon above it, the water flow is clearly passing easily through the PhosGuard. Is my theory flawed (aside from switching the media)? I will test PO4 again and change the PhosGuard if necessary. Good strategy?

02/09/2016, 04:12 AM	#10
Big E Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Euclid, OH Posts: 4,281	Why did you stop the NOPOX? It looks like it was working well for you. Also, suspending the NOPOX use may lead to a rise in your nitrates.........do you have a plan in place if this happens? __________________ 80g Rimless Acropora System reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=31 Ed

02/09/2016, 10:03 AM	#11
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	Either Phosguard or Granular Ferric Oxide when exhausted will not leach phosphate back into the water; this is a common misperception that's often repeated on the 'net. However, you are constantly adding phosphate to the tank in the form of fish/coral foods. And, if no phosphate control was exercised for a long period of time, inorganic phosphate can bind to the rocks and sand. When a phosphate remover resin is added to the system, the phosphate levels in the water will drop, and the bound phosphate in the rocks and sand will leach back out, leading to extremely rapid exhaustion of GFO/Alumina Phosphate Absorbers. Finally, no phosphate test that relies on eye-balling a comparison with a color chart and the test sample is really going to be suitable for a reef tank. That's because of the fundamental chemistry of the phsophate-molybdenum test chemistry. That's why you require a Hanna checker phosphate test, which uses an electronic "eye" to determine the color change, and is far more sensitive than a human's perception of color.